tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post6019556204632137177..comments2024-03-14T14:41:17.663-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Bart Ehrman On The New Testament TextRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-22212998714699694132009-01-12T20:46:00.000-05:002009-01-12T20:46:00.000-05:00Jason: If you've read that book and have listened ...Jason: If you've read that book and have listened to some of James White's comments on the subject in other contexts, why did you say earlier that you didn't know about such textual problems?<BR/><BR/>Vytautas: I knew about them before, but then I forgot, so that I cannot claim to know about such textual problems.Vytautashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10563655929016752682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-22950681076387722482009-01-12T20:31:00.000-05:002009-01-12T20:31:00.000-05:00Zao Thanatoo wrote:"If Ehrman is really not as 'co...Zao Thanatoo wrote:<BR/><BR/>"If Ehrman is really not as 'controversial' as portrayed, do you think the White-Ehrman debate will really be worth attending?"<BR/><BR/>Yes. James White will have an opportunity to explain how Ehrman's material is sometimes misunderstood or misused by people. And there are some text-related issues Ehrman is wrong about, such as the ones I've discussed above.Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-77050579259739791152009-01-12T20:29:00.000-05:002009-01-12T20:29:00.000-05:00Vytautas wrote:"I have read James White's the King...Vytautas wrote:<BR/><BR/>"I have read James White's the King James only Controversy, and have listen to some of his radio programs concerning textual critism, but I had no formal training on the subject. I was a King James Onlyist, but James helped me with my problem."<BR/><BR/>If you've read that book and have listened to some of James White's comments on the subject in other contexts, why did you say earlier that you didn't know about such textual problems?<BR/><BR/>You write:<BR/><BR/>"But what is your expectation of me of how much I should know about textual critical issues?"<BR/><BR/>The degree to which an individual should be informed about the textual record is going to vary from person to person. And it's a different issue than what I was addressing.Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-8684075306449837172009-01-12T11:56:00.000-05:002009-01-12T11:56:00.000-05:00If Ehrman is really not as "controversial" as port...If Ehrman is really not as "controversial" as portrayed, do you think the White-Ehrman debate will really be worth attending?<BR/><BR/>(I ask because I'm considering buying tickets.)Zao Thanatoohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07773282658698389572noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-657055743829747312009-01-12T11:20:00.000-05:002009-01-12T11:20:00.000-05:00Jason: I have no way of knowing why you're unaware...Jason: I have no way of knowing why you're unaware of these textual issues. Have you studied the subject much? Which translations of the Bible have you used? Did you not see any of the material we've written on such textual issues in previous posts at this blog? You haven't heard about such things from pastors, New Testament scholars, critics of Christianity, or anybody else?<BR/><BR/>Vytautas: I have read James White's the King James only Controversy, and have listen to some of his radio programs concerning textual critism, but I had no formal training on the subject. I was a King James Onlyist, but James helped me with my problem. But what is your expectation of me of how much I should know about textual critical issues?Vytautashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10563655929016752682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-84217657320532365302009-01-12T07:03:00.000-05:002009-01-12T07:03:00.000-05:00BlackBaron wrote:"Can't wait for the White/Ehrman ...BlackBaron wrote:<BR/><BR/>"Can't wait for the White/Ehrman debate!"<BR/><BR/>Yes, I expect White to do well.<BR/><BR/>By the way, Ehrman is going to be debating Mike Licona on the resurrection again this April.Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-78741286811272850212009-01-12T07:01:00.000-05:002009-01-12T07:01:00.000-05:00Vytautas wrote:"About for how long have we known t...Vytautas wrote:<BR/><BR/>"About for how long have we known them? And if we know them, how come I don't them?"<BR/><BR/>The answer would vary from one passage to another. But where Ehrman cites ancient manuscript support for one of his readings, for example, he's appealing to an ancient source. Ehrman agrees with his mentor Bruce Metzger on the large majority of the text, and Metzger's work has been known to and used by Christians for decades. Metzger's conclusions were founded on the work of earlier scholars whose findings have been known for a long time as well. Two of the passages I mentioned in my post, the ones in John 7-8 and 1 John 5, are marked off in some manner (brackets, italics, etc.) in Bibles that are used by millions of people. Ancient sources and sources of the Middle Ages discussed such passages and often referred to their absence in manuscripts. See, for example, <A HREF="http://www.bible-researcher.com/adult.html" REL="nofollow">here</A> and <A HREF="http://www.bible-researcher.com/comma.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>. We find discussions of textual variants in Irenaeus, Origen, and other Christian sources who lived long before modern textual scholarship.<BR/><BR/>When I refer to Christian awareness of such issues, I'm not suggesting that every Christian knows of all of them. I wouldn't argue that a farmer in Mexico who just heard the gospel for the first time and became a Christian, for example, is at that point aware of all of the textual variants Ehrman discusses. But the sort of information Ehrman is discussing has been circulating in Christian circles for a long time, in some cases for more than a thousand years. A Christian scholar like Peter Williams isn't surprised by such information, and he could accept every textual change Ehrman proposes without changing his theology in any significant way. A Christian layman listening to Ehrman's discussion with Williams could walk over to his bookcase, pick up a popular translation of the Bible, and see passages like the ones in John 7-8 and 1 John 5 marked off in that Bible.<BR/><BR/>I have no way of knowing why <I>you're</I> unaware of these textual issues. Have you studied the subject much? Which translations of the Bible have you used? Did you not see any of the material we've written on such textual issues in previous posts at this blog? You haven't heard about such things from pastors, New Testament scholars, critics of Christianity, or anybody else?Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-71033294814843452282009-01-12T00:43:00.000-05:002009-01-12T00:43:00.000-05:00Thanks for this post. Can't wait for the White/Ehr...Thanks for this post. Can't wait for the White/Ehrman debate!BlackBaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08667694529721924113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-27614935043727173042009-01-11T21:51:00.000-05:002009-01-11T21:51:00.000-05:00Jason: Christians have known about such textual pr...Jason: Christians have known about such textual problems for a long time without drawing the conclusions that Ehrman has reached. <BR/><BR/>Vytautas: About for how long have we known them? And if we know them, how come I don't them? Please excuse my ignorance.Vytautashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10563655929016752682noreply@blogger.com