tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post548780107633454768..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Starting-points in apologeticsRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger274125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-32095482949717598122018-07-19T07:27:54.744-04:002018-07-19T07:27:54.744-04:00Epistle of Dude,
Indeed. Ignoring for the moment ...Epistle of Dude,<br /><br />Indeed. Ignoring for the moment that, on atheism, there can be no 'right' or 'wrong' belief in any objective sense, there can certainly be a 'beneficial' or 'detrimental' belief on an evolutionary paradigm. So taking your statistical point, which these kinds of studies seem always to confirm, then, on that paradigm, it is, generally, beneficial for survivability purposes to have religious belief. <br /><br />We might point out to the atheist that, on atheism, the religious are generally better evolved than the non-religious. The non-religious need to start playing catch-up in order to be good evolutionists.<br /><br />The statistical data that these kinds of studies produce certainly present a conundrum for the atheist.Dannyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03954530962872661952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-87383748067931636722018-07-19T06:51:05.809-04:002018-07-19T06:51:05.809-04:00At the risk of stating the obvious, religious peop...At the risk of stating the obvious, religious people have more children on average than atheists. <br /><br />Not to mention a recent University of California study was released showing how “nones” (people who don’t identify with any religion) identify almost completely with the Left or liberals, and that the Left tends to suffer from higher rates of depression, suicide, and other mental and emotional ills than do the Right or conservatives.Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-42351723484301020452018-07-18T22:41:46.605-04:002018-07-18T22:41:46.605-04:00https://rationalchristiandiscernment.blogspot.com/...https://rationalchristiandiscernment.blogspot.com/2017/12/a-brief-critique-of-humanist-logic.htmlJesse Albrechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01349321905468957335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-86530813371771388512018-07-17T19:58:21.770-04:002018-07-17T19:58:21.770-04:00Gary
"Yea, I figured as much: Anyone who dec...Gary<br /><br />"Yea, I figured as much: Anyone who deconverts from Christianity was never a Christian be begin with."<br /><br />1. You asked for my opinion about a single person. I gave you my opinion along with my reasoning. If you think your hero Bruce Gerencser was a genuine believer, then you're free to argue why. No one's stopping you.<br /><br />2. You're committing a faulty generalization by assuming what I said applies to every deconvert.<br /><br />3. As a matter of fact, I don't think everyone who "deconverts from Christianity was never a Christian [to] begin with". I don't think everyone who has lost their faith wasn't a genuine Christian before. For example, take the English poet William Cowper. He wrote the poem "The Castaway" shortly before his death, which many have interpreted as Cowper referring to himself, as one who never reached heaven's shores, as one destined to die outside of God. Yet I think Cowper was a genuine Christian, though he lost his faith.<br /><br />"Nice talking to you, "Dude". May the true belief system win! See ya."<br /><br />If atheism is true, then no one "wins" in the end. If atheism is true, animals, humans, and the universe itself is doomed to death. All that awaits is non-being.Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-78933280974201586242018-07-17T19:36:17.518-04:002018-07-17T19:36:17.518-04:00Yea, I figured as much: Anyone who deconverts fro...Yea, I figured as much: Anyone who deconverts from Christianity was never a Christian be begin with.<br /><br />Nice talking to you, "Dude". May the true belief system win!<br /><br />See ya.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519721717265344702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-57056146678848472162018-07-17T18:44:40.490-04:002018-07-17T18:44:40.490-04:00"The Song of the Strange Ascetic"
by G.K..."The Song of the Strange Ascetic"<br />by G.K. Chesterton<br /><br />If I had been a Heathen,<br />I’d have praised the purple vine,<br />My slaves should dig the vineyards,<br />And I would drink the wine.<br />But Higgins is a Heathen,<br />And his slaves grow lean and grey,<br />That he may drink some tepid milk<br />Exactly twice a day.<br /><br />If I had been a Heathen,<br />I’d have crowned Neaera’s curls,<br />And filled my life with love affairs,<br />My house with dancing girls;<br />But Higgins is a Heathen,<br />And to lecture rooms is forced,<br />Where his aunts, who are not married,<br />Demand to be divorced.<br /><br />If I had been a Heathen,<br />I’d have sent my armies forth,<br />And dragged behind my chariots<br />The Chieftains of the North.<br />But Higgins is a Heathen,<br />And he drives the dreary quill,<br />To lend the poor that funny cash<br />That makes them poorer still.<br /><br />If I had been a Heathen,<br />I’d have piled my pyre on high,<br />And in a great red whirlwind<br />Gone roaring to the sky;<br />But Higgins is a Heathen,<br />And a richer man than I:<br />And they put him in an oven,<br />Just as if he were a pie.<br /><br />Now who that runs can read it,<br />The riddle that I write,<br />Of why this poor old sinner,<br />Should sin without delight-<br />But I, I cannot read it<br />(Although I run and run),<br />Of them that do not have the faith,<br />And will not have the fun.<br />Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-42939580848546737632018-07-17T18:41:26.792-04:002018-07-17T18:41:26.792-04:00Anyway, these atheist deconversion stories are so ...Anyway, these atheist deconversion stories are so stereotypical. They share so many similar patterns. They're so predictable. They're almost boring to read. <br /><br />Besides, former pastors turned atheists like Dan Barker and Jerry DeWitt did it better than Bruce Gerencser. Charles Templeton too. Lots of others.<br /><br />Whatever happened to atheists like Friedrich Nietzsche? Or Julian the Apostate? At least atheists like Michael Ruse and Alex Rosenberg are more honest than most too.Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-5595686809474296082018-07-17T18:32:58.507-04:002018-07-17T18:32:58.507-04:00Gary reminds me of this guy who calls himself Chat...Gary reminds me of this guy who calls himself Chatpilot:<br /><br /><a href="https://chatpilot-godisamyth.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow"> <b>Blogger: God is a Myth!</b></a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-72064635541521708462018-07-17T18:23:58.746-04:002018-07-17T18:23:58.746-04:00Gary
"I was very devout when I was younger ...Gary <br /><br />"I was very devout when I was younger including going on "visitation" on Thursday nights, going into neighborhoods, knocking on door after door, sharing the Gospel in an attempt to bring other people to Christ by repenting and asking Jesus to be their Lord and Savior."<br /><br />I hate to break it to you, but participating in evangelism doesn't necessarily suggest you were or weren't a genuine Christian. For example, JWs, Mormons, and other cults go door to door "sharing the gospel". <br /><br />"I became "non-devout" in my mid 20's."<br /><br />Yes, I know. That's why I had said you weren't devout <i>as an adult</i>.<br /><br />"Here is former evangelical pastor Bruce Gerencser's deconversion story. I would be curious if after reading it if you believe that Bruce was ever a "real" Christian: https://brucegerencser.net/series/from-evangelicalism-to-atheism/"<br /><br />1. I read it. Since you ask, no, I don't think he ever was a genuine Christian. He was always too restless, moving from belief to belief, thought to thought, church to church. He never seemed to have found (intellectual and existential) rest in God. <br /><br />2. Of course, he might say the reason he was so restless is because he is a freethinker and can't stop thinking, asking, probing, questioning, etc. Sure, I could better understand someone leaving Christianity after wrestling with the best that Christianity has to offer as far as arguments for belief in the God of the Bible. However, that's not what he has done. <br /><br />His deconversion story is striking for what it lacks or omits (and contrary to popular belief it's not necessarily fallacious to argue the absence of evidence is evidence of absence). There's no mention of top notch Christian intellectuals, scholars, apologists, scientists, etc. No, the people mentioned in his deconversion story are people like Jack Hyles, John MacArthur, Bruce Cummons, Keith Troyer, Charles Spurgeon, etc. All of these guys are pastors or popularizers, not serious scholars or similar. That's telling. <br /><br />At most, he alludes to reading "the books of Puritan/Calvinist authors from the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries" but most the Puritans weren't intellectual giants. Exceptions are men like John Owen and Jonathan Edwards, but I don't know if he read them. And even if he did, I don't think they addressed the issues he was likely wrestling with (e.g. atheism). <br /><br />Perhaps he is better read today. But that'd be after the fact. It wasn't part of his original journey away from Christianity.<br /><br />3. Another striking omission is any serious attempts to grapple with the Bible itself. No biblical commentators, no first-rate theologians, etc.<br /><br />4. Perhaps he'd say he's so restless because Christianity itself is deficient and doesn't offer intellectual or existential rest or peace. If that's what he says, that's highly debatable for one thing, but more to the point, it just proves my point: he never found rest!<br /><br />5. Apart from whether or not he was a genuine Christian, I disagree with many of his statements from just a basic common sense perspective. For example, he takes the definition of evangelical from the National Association of Evangelicals, but at the risk of stating the obvious these definitions are aimed less at biblical and theological accuracy and precision than at broad-based consensus or wider acceptance. They're not the minimum one has to believe to be an evangelical, but the most ecumenical (in the context of evangelicals, not in the context of others like Catholics and Eastern Orthdoox). <br /><br />6. Another issue is he conflates being an evangelical with being a genuine Christian. Regardless, it seems to me it's more like he joined a social club that he was happy in for a while, that he even became a leader of for a while, going through the proper rituals and motions and recitations, rubbing elbows with popular Christians, and so on. However, as far as being regenerate, it doesn't sound like it to me. Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-17410401337007410192018-07-17T17:19:27.223-04:002018-07-17T17:19:27.223-04:00Here is former evangelical pastor Bruce Gerencser&...Here is former evangelical pastor Bruce Gerencser's deconversion story. I would be curious if after reading it if you believe that Bruce was ever a "real" Christian:<br /><br />https://brucegerencser.net/series/from-evangelicalism-to-atheism/<br /><br />Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519721717265344702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-3894741538754537482018-07-17T17:14:55.386-04:002018-07-17T17:14:55.386-04:00"Actually, you didn't even do that, becau..."Actually, you didn't even do that, because you yourself said that as an adult: "I was not devout."<br /><br />I was very devout when I was younger including going on "visitation" on Thursday nights, going into neighborhoods, knocking on door after door, sharing the Gospel in an attempt to bring other people to Christ by repenting and asking Jesus to be their Lord and Savior.<br /><br />I became "non-devout" in my mid 20's.<br /><br />Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519721717265344702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-18444703283245995052018-07-17T16:16:28.490-04:002018-07-17T16:16:28.490-04:00Gary
"https://brucegerencser.net/"
Ju...Gary <br /><br />"https://brucegerencser.net/"<br /><br />Just skimmed through it. Nothing I haven't heard before. At least so far. And actually quite similar to John Loftus. But did you have a particular post in mind that you found especially persuasive? If you do, I'll read it. If it's worth commenting on, I'll comment on it.Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-37270343802288971732018-07-17T16:14:24.446-04:002018-07-17T16:14:24.446-04:00Lol, Peter! Good point! :)Lol, Peter! Good point! :)Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62872967084105537322018-07-17T16:11:40.863-04:002018-07-17T16:11:40.863-04:00Not to mention the resurrected Christ is totes the...Not to mention the resurrected Christ is totes the same thing as a dead corpse, Epistle Dude.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-53247910679896622832018-07-17T16:09:53.083-04:002018-07-17T16:09:53.083-04:00Gary
"Nice try. Dead corpses do not levitate...Gary<br /><br />"Nice try. Dead corpses do not levitate into space. Ever."<br /><br />1. These sorts of statements (littered throughout this thread) show how illiterate Gary is. He doesn't know how to approach an ancient text like the Bible. <br /><br />However, even if someone thinks the Bible is myth, they still need to be able to read the Bible on its own terms. Just like even if someone thinks Homer's <i>Iliad</i> is myth, they still need to be able to read Homer's <i>Iliad</i> on its own terms.<br /><br />It's obvious Gary never understood how to approach or read the Bible on its own terms. Instead, he reads ancient texts from his (anachronistic) perspective. Gary is like the person who reads <i>Watership Down</i> then seriously criticizes the book for its scientifically inaccurate depiction of rabbits.<br /><br />Apostates from Christianity are often the ones who least understand the Bible. Gary certainly fits the bill. He left a faith he hardly understood.<br /><br />2. Among other things, Jesus' ascension has allusions to the Shekinah. This calls to mind Moses entering the Shekinah (Ex 24:18) as well as the apostles Peter, John, and James entering the Shekinah in the transfiguration (Lk 9:34). That's something the Jewish observers would've recognized. That's a starting point.Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-75616068720771172572018-07-17T15:38:24.091-04:002018-07-17T15:38:24.091-04:00The sad thing is he probably is too stupid to real...The sad thing is he probably is too stupid to realize he's doing it again.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-5522850410271521072018-07-17T15:32:06.415-04:002018-07-17T15:32:06.415-04:00Gary
"This is a common response from evangel...Gary<br /><br />"This is a common response from evangelicals who believe in "eternal security": It is impossible for Gary to have been a REAL Christian. Real Christians CANNOT deconvert."<br /><br />Actually, I didn't assume "eternal security" in my response to you. I simply quoted what you said. You said you believed your "salvation is based on GOD’S act of justification in Holy Baptism". That's simply not the gospel. Based on your own words, you didn't rightly understand the gospel. If you didn't rightly understand the gospel, then how could you have believed the gospel?<br /><br />"But if salvation is as simple as truly repenting of all your sins and truly turning your life over to Jesus, then I was saved."<br /><br />Actually, you didn't even do that, because you yourself said that as an adult: "I was not devout."Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-28479276168236029232018-07-17T15:30:28.038-04:002018-07-17T15:30:28.038-04:00Nice try.
Dead corpses do not levitate into space...Nice try.<br /><br />Dead corpses do not levitate into space.<br /><br />Ever.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519721717265344702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-23873051679115354112018-07-17T15:21:51.164-04:002018-07-17T15:21:51.164-04:00Gary
"That is a personal attack. It is not a...Gary<br /><br />"That is a personal attack. It is not addressing the topic of the discussion. It is true that "Steve" and "Dude" started the personal attacks before you, but eventually you joined in. I never personally attacked anyone individually."<br /><br />1. This is hilarious. How often in this very thread have you actually "address[ed] the topic of the discussion", Gary? In fact, this very post was about Christian apologetic methodology, not about atheism/naturalism, yet that's what you turned it into in your very first comment. I mean I don't see you debating Christian apologetic methodology here!<br /><br />2. Also, you're assuming using <i>ad hominem</i> is always fallacious. But what makes you think using <i>ad hominem</i> is always fallacious? See <a href="https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2013/04/what-is-ad-hominem-fallacy.html" rel="nofollow">this post</a> for example.<br /><br />3. Is this about morality or ethics? Given atheism, what's your grounds for objective morality? If none, then you can't object that anyone is treating you immorally or unethically. <br />Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-24828921461358547742018-07-17T15:17:53.759-04:002018-07-17T15:17:53.759-04:00This is a common response from evangelicals who be...This is a common response from evangelicals who believe in "eternal security": It is impossible for Gary to have been a REAL Christian. Real Christians CANNOT deconvert. <br /><br />But if salvation is as simple as truly repenting of all your sins and truly turning your life over to Jesus, then I was saved. Even the Lutheran Church believed that I was saved at age nine when I repented (while still a Baptist). Lutherans teach that salvation comes by the (magical) power of the Word of God which can save infants when the Word is pronounced at their baptism or when an adult hears the Word preached or when the adult reads the world. So I never believed, even as a Lutheran, that I was saved at the time of my baptism. For me, my baptism only served as a visible seal/mark of my salvation.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519721717265344702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-73482336643608175912018-07-17T15:11:28.748-04:002018-07-17T15:11:28.748-04:00No, not Loftus, although I do occasionally read hi...No, not Loftus, although I do occasionally read his blog. The Baptist pastor turned atheist who helped me to "see the light" was Bruce Gerenscer. Here is a link to his atheist blog:<br /><br />https://brucegerencser.net/<br /><br />If you go on my blog and go to the earliest post, you can read the post describing my first encounter with Gerencser. I thought it was going to be easy to defeat his atheist arguments and bring him back to Lord Jesus. I was wrong. <br /><br />Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519721717265344702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-67344767489616559092018-07-17T15:08:43.247-04:002018-07-17T15:08:43.247-04:00"Actually, I went back and looked at your com..."Actually, I went back and looked at your comments, Peter, and you did start off discussing and debating the issue."<br /><br />Yes, and you know who DIDN'T discuss or debate the issue?<br /><br />GAREBARE!<br /><br />Yes, we have a whiner. I mean weiner--winner! WINNER.<br /><br />As I said, I don't suffer fools. When you show yourself unwilling to engage in grown up dialogue, you get treated like the punk you are.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-29906635275281036022018-07-17T15:07:03.273-04:002018-07-17T15:07:03.273-04:00Gary
"Why don't Christians accept a Baye...Gary<br /><br />"Why don't Christians accept a Bayesian argument for the Hindu claim that the Buddha caused a water buffalo to speak in a human language for three quarters of an hour?"<br /><br />Show me where Hindus have made a Bayesian argument for the claim and I'll consider it.<br /><br />"Why don't Christians accept a Bayesian argument for the Muslim claim that Mohammad flew on a winged horse?"<br /><br />Show me where Muslims have made a Bayesian argument for the claim and I'll consider it.<br /><br />"Why don't Christians create a Bayesian argument for the claim that Cinderella rode to the ball in a pumpkin-turned-carriage?"<br /><br />Why would Christians "create a Bayesian argument" for Cinderella? Don't be stupid, Gary. (And no, there's nothing wrong with calling you stupid when you behave stupidly.)<br /><br />"The majority of modern, educated humans reject highly improbable supernatural claims"<br /><br />The reality is that the New Atheist campaign, by discouraging religion, won't create a new group of intelligent, skeptical, enlightened beings. Far from it: It might actually encourage new levels of mass superstition. And that's not a conclusion to take on faith -- it's what the empirical data tell us.<br /><br />"What Americans Really Believe," a comprehensive new study released by Baylor University yesterday, shows that traditional Christian religion greatly decreases belief in everything from the efficacy of palm readers to the usefulness of astrology. It also shows that the irreligious and the members of more liberal Protestant denominations, far from being resistant to superstition, tend to be much more likely to believe in the paranormal and in pseudoscience than evangelical Christians...<br /><br />This is not a new finding. In his 1983 book "The Whys of a Philosophical Scrivener," skeptic and science writer Martin Gardner cited the decline of traditional religious belief among the better educated as one of the causes for an increase in pseudoscience, cults and superstition. He referenced a 1980 study published in the magazine Skeptical Inquirer that showed irreligious college students to be by far the most likely to embrace paranormal beliefs, while born-again Christian college students were the least likely.<br /><br />("<a href="https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB122178219865054585" rel="nofollow">Look Who's Irrational Now</a>", <i>WSJ</i>)<br /><br />"...except when it comes to their own religion."<br /><br />Sounds like plenty of atheists online!Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-50989640616426839742018-07-17T15:05:51.032-04:002018-07-17T15:05:51.032-04:00That's called "observation", Gary. ...That's called "observation", Gary. Something you should try for a change.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-64371148561878451442018-07-17T14:59:16.611-04:002018-07-17T14:59:16.611-04:00I'm beginning to think Gary doesn't have a...I'm beginning to think Gary doesn't have any patients. I mean, who would stay with him?<br /><br />"Doctor, I hurt my elbow playing tennis."<br /><br />"Alright. Drop your pants and cough."<br /><br />"No, it's my elbow."<br /><br />"Hey! I didn't go to eight years of medical school to have my wisdom second guessed. Drop them now! ... Hmmm.... Umhmmm... Yes, we're going to need to operate."<br /><br />"But doctor--"<br /><br />"It's okay. I did seven operations yesterday. The buzzer only went off three times."<br /><br />"WHAT?!"<br /><br />"Just breathe this."<br /><br />"Not until you tell me what it is."<br /><br />"It's laughing gas. It'll put you out."<br /><br />"The canister says Zyklon B."<br /><br />"That's what I said. Generic laughing gas."<br /><br />"I don't feel so..." PLOP.<br /><br />"Alright. Now, which foot were we going to amputate again?"Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.com