tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post4604025133900723564..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: The Immorality of HellRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-74371149882022322742007-03-20T11:36:00.000-04:002007-03-20T11:36:00.000-04:00Orthodox,I am keeping up.And, what I've found, is ...Orthodox,<BR/><BR/>I am keeping up.<BR/><BR/>And, what I've found, is that you're all bark and no bite. All talk and no action. All you've done is to assert that we throw away compatibilism.<BR/><BR/>Compatibilism states that free will is compatible with determinism. It says that people always choose consistent with their desires, nature, etc.<BR/><BR/>So, how are we inconsistent?<BR/><BR/>A sinner S, does not want to chose God because of S's nature, God changes S's nature (which was determined from the foundation of the world, so this is still part of determined events), and now S desires to chose God, and S does so freely.<BR/><BR/>Now, are we going to get another Soprano's response? More tough guy talk and mere assertions? Is that how the Eastern Orthodox Church rolls these days?Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-10099520021192035812007-03-20T01:07:00.000-04:002007-03-20T01:07:00.000-04:00>So, all Orthodox has done, again, is >assert some...>So, all Orthodox has done, again, is <BR/>>assert some claim, which he has yet <BR/>>to tie to anything, to show any <BR/>>logical rigor, that is simply <BR/>>unargued.<BR/><BR/>Try to keep up.<BR/><BR/>The point is that Calvinists, having spent so much time establishing compatibilism, throw it away at the final gate, at the place where all the controversy is: at the point of conversion.<BR/><BR/>5 point calvinism doesn't need compatibilism. It's a mere side issues to the central premise that man cannot choose God as an act of choice compatible with God's will. Contrary to how the rest of the Calvinist universe works, God has to make special extraordinary intervention to pull his plans together in salvation. That's the one thing he can't pull off with pure compatibilism.orthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-23313366397429675042007-03-19T22:00:00.000-04:002007-03-19T22:00:00.000-04:00Regeneration is something done to man, compatibili...Regeneration is something done to man, compatibilism simply tells us that freedom is compatible with determinism.<BR/><BR/>So, all Orthodox has done, again, is assert some claim, which he has yet to tie to anything, to show any logical rigor, that is simply unargued.<BR/><BR/>Feel free to make an argument... we'll be waiting.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-437379273700624462007-03-19T19:46:00.000-04:002007-03-19T19:46:00.000-04:00Is "regeneration" an act of man's free will? If no...Is "regeneration" an act of man's free will? If not, then it is NOT compatibilism. This is about as basic as it gets folks.orthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-3005005912058303422007-03-19T13:55:00.000-04:002007-03-19T13:55:00.000-04:00Dude,I never said you said anything incorrect. I ...Dude,<BR/><BR/>I never said you said anything incorrect. I said you were being sloppy and not wanting to interact with what I've said. You've allowed yourself to be able to assert your complaints about "odd plans" because you just plead ignorance.<BR/><BR/>You're playing games, pretending to be an ignoramous, etc., warrants the stern attitude.<BR/><BR/>The names I called were accurate. If someone can't bother to read about 10 pages on the internet so that they can understand a position and how to use terms appropriately, they're not stupid, they're lazy.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-46384171503585478252007-03-19T12:55:00.000-04:002007-03-19T12:55:00.000-04:00OK Paul, I'll stop posting here, but as I said abo...OK Paul, I'll stop posting here, but as I said above:<BR/><BR/>"what did I say that was incorrect?<BR/><BR/>What did I say to warrant your abusive attitude?"<BR/><BR/>I don't feel I said anything 'incorrect' or anything to warrant being called names.<BR/><BR/>whatever...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-5104451092247906682007-03-19T12:53:00.000-04:002007-03-19T12:53:00.000-04:00Dude,You get me.Go play games somewhere else.Dude,<BR/><BR/>You get me.<BR/><BR/>Go play games somewhere else.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-87107673600662098702007-03-19T11:05:00.000-04:002007-03-19T11:05:00.000-04:00Paul,I really don't get you...what did I say that ...Paul,<BR/><BR/>I really don't get you...<BR/><BR/>what did I say that was incorrect?<BR/><BR/>What did I say to warrant your abusive attitude?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-50040413221508586582007-03-19T10:47:00.000-04:002007-03-19T10:47:00.000-04:00Orthodox,"God making extraordinary intervention to...Orthodox,<BR/><BR/><I>"God making extraordinary intervention to meddle with the nature is not compatibilism."</I><BR/><BR/>Well, despite the fallacious use of emotive language, all you're doing is reasserting what you've been saying since your first comment. Your complain doesn't become true after the 10th time saying it. Try offering an argument rather than a mere assertion.<BR/><BR/><I>"According to you, the compatibilism of this verse could be that Pilate may well be a good man who didn't want to hurt Jesus, but God zaps Pilate's nature so that he wants to crucify him and brings about God's big plan."</I><BR/><BR/>Well, I don't think any are good, no not one. But, even if God "zapped Pilate's nature" and then Pilate chose to do X, according to his new nature, he'd still be chosing according to his nature.<BR/><BR/>And, please don't respond if all you're going to say is,<BR/><BR/>"That's not compatibilism."<BR/><BR/>But, if you persist in thinking assertions and ignorant statements stand in for arguments, then:<BR/><BR/>"The Orthodox church is mistaken."<BR/><BR/>Now, no matter what you say, I'll just reassert that.<BR/><BR/>Stupid, huh?<BR/><BR/>Well, now you know how you're being viewd.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-25680263798821594122007-03-19T10:41:00.000-04:002007-03-19T10:41:00.000-04:00Dude,Your sarcasm is evident to all.You don't not ...Dude,<BR/><BR/>Your sarcasm is evident to all.<BR/><BR/>You don't not understand because you don't have the time to read 12 books, but because you're too lazy to read even 1 or 2 articles.<BR/><BR/>You're putting on a show, trying to get a point accross, then when the point is met, you pretend to be stupid so you don't have to deal with the arguments, and can just reassert your critique.<BR/><BR/>You obviously think it's a problem God determining everything. But rather than interact, you're pretending to be ignorant so you can continue to say their's a problem.<BR/><BR/>I mean, maybe your little one-man-play works over at Debunking Christianity, but we're smarter than those guys. Didn't you know? :-)Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-41097161642141963762007-03-19T09:00:00.000-04:002007-03-19T09:00:00.000-04:00anonymous...you said*Dude, if you admit to being a...anonymous...you said<BR/><BR/>*Dude, if you admit to being almost entirely ignorant of our faith then you should stop making snide remarks about it.*<BR/><BR/>What did I say that was snide? I said I didn't understand things. I asked questions. I appreciated Paul's answers. Just not sure why he is name calling? I didn't do anything to deserve that, did I?<BR/><BR/>I found this blog and post by reading some stuff on Debunking Xianity, which isn't that interesting of a site. I really don't have the desire to become a philosopher just to understand this stuff. No big deal to me. I still don't get why I am a one-toothed lazy sophomore?<BR/><BR/>Paul?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-47089973200883893112007-03-19T07:16:00.000-04:002007-03-19T07:16:00.000-04:00^"A man is perfectly entitled to laugh at a thing ...^"A man is perfectly entitled to laugh at a thing because he happens to find it incomprehensible. What he has no right to do is to laugh at it as incomprehensible, and then criticise it as if he comprehended it.”—G.K, Chesterton <BR/><BR/>Dude, if you admit to being almost entirely ignorant of our faith then you should stop making snide remarks about it.<BR/><BR/>I'm glad to see that you're showing an interest in Christianity though :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-46765781225790706482007-03-19T05:29:00.000-04:002007-03-19T05:29:00.000-04:00Why all the insults? I'm lazy and a sophomore? I...Why all the insults? I'm lazy and a sophomore? I'm just being honest about how I feel.<BR/><BR/>If I'm supposed to be saved, I will be, according to you. Sounds good to me. No use getting all worked up about it, because its out of my hands. <BR/><BR/>If I feel this way, its because God made me feel this way for a reason. I didn't call you names or anything, because you have different interests than me. What is your problem?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-9422350840258260812007-03-19T04:17:00.000-04:002007-03-19T04:17:00.000-04:00>Compatibilism is that people chose >according to ...>Compatibilism is that people chose <BR/>>according to their desires and <BR/>>nature. Regeneration brings about a <BR/>>new nature, which desires to choose <BR/>>Jesus.<BR/>><BR/>>This is compatibilism.<BR/><BR/>God making extraordinary intervention to meddle with the nature is not compatibilism.<BR/><BR/>Let's go back to the text above:<BR/><BR/>Acts 4:27-28 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."<BR/><BR/>According to you, the compatibilism of this verse could be that Pilate may well be a good man who didn't want to hurt Jesus, but God zaps Pilate's nature so that he wants to crucify him and brings about God's big plan.<BR/><BR/>Sorry, but God going around zapping people's nature so that he can pull off his plans is not compatibilismorthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-45315220204499410872007-03-19T01:06:00.000-04:002007-03-19T01:06:00.000-04:00"Well, most of that went over my head. I'm a prett...<EM>"Well, most of that went over my head. I'm a pretty simple minded guy, and haven't bothered to become an expert on philosophy."</EM><BR/><BR/>Or, perhaps you're lazy and don't want to do your homework? Perhaps, what they say is true: "ignorance is bliss."<BR/><BR/><EM>"It seems to me, that you're saying, that a person can't choose to become a Christian unless God causes it to happen. Maybe there are all sort of fancy ways to describe that, but to me, I guess it just sounds like only the ones God chooses to save get saved."</EM><BR/><BR/>It seems to me that I said you'd need to define the worlds *you're* using. What, you don't know how you're using words? And, yes, the only ones who come to Jesus, are those chosen from the foundation of the world. You've yet to list any problems. Perhaps your sensibilities are your guide to what is true or not?<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, unless you reject phsyicalism and atheism, then you do only what you're determined to do. So, add self-refuting to lazy.<BR/><BR/><EM>"Seems like kind of an odd plan to me, that only the ones God chooses to save, get saved, and the ones that don't get chosen, get to go to hell, without really having any real choice in the matter."</EM><BR/><BR/>Good thing truth isn't determined by what doesn't "seem odd to you."<BR/><BR/>And, yes, the ones who go to hell do have a "real choice in the matter." But, rather than broaden your horizons, engage my position, you're content to be a sophomore about it.<BR/><BR/><EM>"But hey, I'm just a simple minded guy. If I have to read 12 books on philosophy to understand this, it really isn't worth it to me."</EM><BR/><BR/>No, one or two articles would do, but you're too lazy even for that. Keep brushing that one tooth up there in the Ozark mountains.<BR/><BR/><EM>"And besides...if I'm supposed to be saved, I will be, right?"</EM><BR/><BR/>Yes, but not without the means. Don't make the sophomore mistake of confusing determinism with fatalism.<BR/><BR/><EM>"Thanks for your time. Reading this blog has been an interesting time tonight. :) "</EM><BR/><BR/>You're welcome, anytime we can help, just let us know.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-27309263126584466882007-03-19T00:00:00.000-04:002007-03-19T00:00:00.000-04:00Well, most of that went over my head. I'm a prett...Well, most of that went over my head. I'm a pretty simple minded guy, and haven't bothered to become an expert on philosophy.<BR/><BR/>It seems to me, that you're saying, that a person can't choose to become a Christian unless God causes it to happen. Maybe there are all sort of fancy ways to describe that, but to me, I guess it just sounds like only the ones God chooses to save get saved.<BR/><BR/>Seems like kind of an odd plan to me, that only the ones God chooses to save, get saved, and the ones that don't get chosen, get to go to hell, without really having any real choice in the matter.<BR/><BR/>But hey, I'm just a simple minded guy. If I have to read 12 books on philosophy to understand this, it really isn't worth it to me.<BR/><BR/>And besides...if I'm supposed to be saved, I will be, right?<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your time. Reading this blog has been an interesting time tonight. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-33927761828304741822007-03-18T23:34:00.000-04:002007-03-18T23:34:00.000-04:00Dude,"Thanks for the response to my question.I gue...Dude,<BR/><BR/><I>"Thanks for the response to my question.<BR/><BR/>I guess I don't understand what all of the debate is about then."</I><BR/><BR/>Sure, you're welcome.<BR/><BR/>If you can't understand what the libertarian vs. compatibilism debates are about, I'm sure you could peruse the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy website and become conversant with he literature.<BR/><BR/><I>"A person can't repent of their sins, seek forgiveness, and submit their hearts to Christ unless God gives them this desire/ability/whatever."</I><BR/><BR/>Well, this is sloppy and shows that you didn't bother to read (or read that actively) the post. First, in what sense is "can't." Being used? Second, if in the compatibilist sense, so what? This isn't unique to Christian theism. You'd also need to show how the vast majority of atheist are wrong here as well. Most naturalists are determinists, and most of them are compatibilists. That someone "can't" do something in a compatibilist sense isn't problematic to moral responsibility or freedom... at all.<BR/><BR/><I>"So, God causes it to happen. Period.<BR/><BR/>Or did I miss something?"</I><BR/><BR/>Yeah, God causes everything to happen, though he uses means to bring about the ends. The means (in this case, choices of men) allow the end to be accomplished. Without the means, no end.<BR/><BR/>For the compatibilist, it is freedom from *coercion* rather than freedon from *causation* that we're concerned with.<BR/><BR/>And, btw, are you saying that *nothing* can *cause* our choices? So, are your choices *uncaused?* Are they, what, like accidents? Do they just "pop" into existence from nothing? If they're uncaused events, more like accidents than motivated actions, then why hold people morally responsible? Do you beat your children for accidently knocking over a glass of milk?<BR/><BR/>So, as I said above, you might want to explore the literature on the topic.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-78074049579340666382007-03-18T23:14:00.000-04:002007-03-18T23:14:00.000-04:00Ramesh doesn't seem to get it.He continues to post...Ramesh doesn't seem to get it.<BR/><BR/>He continues to post in comboxes things that clearly violate rules for posting.<BR/><BR/>He inconsistently wants to paint me in a bad light, when he is clearly acting like an ass and violating posting policy.<BR/><BR/>Ramesh can't take it that I won't sink to his level, and so he continues to act like a spoiled 5 yr old. <BR/><BR/>Ramesh pretends to be on the moral high ground, but with his constant reposting of the same post I've deleated 5 or 6 times, his violation of our requests here, and his mere ad hominem attacks (without substance, i.e., the fallacious kind), he shows himself to be tossed to and fro by inconsistencies and double-standardness.<BR/><BR/>Ramesh, if you can't control yourself, leave graciously, or wind up posting something relevant to my post, then don't you think your attempted mud slinging rings a bit hollow? You kind of look like a child molesting catholic priest, telling his congregation to bastain from sex outside of marriage.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-54540721750778735942007-03-18T23:10:00.000-04:002007-03-18T23:10:00.000-04:00Thanks for the response to my question.I guess I d...Thanks for the response to my question.<BR/><BR/>I guess I don't understand what all of the debate is about then.<BR/><BR/>A person can't repent of their sins, seek forgiveness, and submit their hearts to Christ unless God gives them this desire/ability/whatever.<BR/><BR/>So, God causes it to happen. Period.<BR/><BR/>Or did I miss something?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-82756095924523699472007-03-18T23:06:00.000-04:002007-03-18T23:06:00.000-04:00"Maybe I'm just dense, but perhaps you could help ...<I>"Maybe I'm just dense, but perhaps you could help me understand this...<BR/><BR/>Can a person have the desire to repent without God first giving them this desire?"</I><BR/><BR/>Despite the vagueness, no, someone cannot truly repent (using biblical definitions) unless God changes their nature.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-39115989229000958192007-03-18T22:51:00.000-04:002007-03-18T22:51:00.000-04:00Maybe I'm just dense, but perhaps you could help m...Maybe I'm just dense, but perhaps you could help me understand this...<BR/><BR/>Can a person have the desire to repent without God first giving them this desire?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-74841253977774313232007-03-18T22:33:00.000-04:002007-03-18T22:33:00.000-04:00Compatibilism is that people chose according to th...Compatibilism is that people chose according to their desires and nature. Regeneration brings about a new nature, which desires to choose Jesus.<BR/><BR/>This is compatibilism.<BR/><BR/>So, the one's who *DO* chose Jesus, do so compatibilistically.<BR/><BR/>Or, take physical determinism, of the secular variety.<BR/><BR/>Say that S only chooses actions X, Y, and Z because they are consistent with his nature.<BR/><BR/>Then, suppose that S is blasted by a gamma ray from Alpha Centauri, giving S a new nature which only choses X*, Y*, and Z*.<BR/><BR/>None of this would be inconsistent with naturalistic and physicalist determinism, and so why with theological determinism.<BR/><BR/>Look, your wrong. Feel free to make other critiques, but the one you're making is simply wrong.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-36128007410589269772007-03-18T21:49:00.000-04:002007-03-18T21:49:00.000-04:00>Well, thanks for showing how >ignorant you are of...>Well, thanks for showing how <BR/>>ignorant you are of reformed <BR/>>theology. Ya know, it'd be nice to <BR/>>if you'd actually cite Calvinists. <BR/>>Compatibilism is not thrown out the <BR/>>window. People chose what they <BR/>>desire, and so whjen it comes to <BR/>>chosing Jesus, the ones who don't <BR/>>chose him don't desire to.<BR/><BR/>Yes the ones who DON'T choose Jesus do so compatibly. But what I said was that the ones who *DO* choose Jesus DON'T do so compatibly. They have to have the special intervention in their will (aka "regeneration") to give them the predisposition to NOW choose Jesus. Special intervention into people's wills is manifestly NOT compatibilism. That is incompatibilism. It is saying that people's unadulterated will wouldn't result in God's will without God fiddling in the inner workings of the will.orthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-68703940150546716812007-03-18T20:50:00.000-04:002007-03-18T20:50:00.000-04:00"I wonder why Paul keeps deleting posts here?"Beca...<I>"I wonder why Paul keeps deleting posts here?"</I><BR/><BR/>Because there is no purpose for your posts. They have nothing to do with the topic of my threads. Post something of substance, or else find somewhere else to troll. Perhaps you should read the rules of engagement here:<BR/><BR/>* Posting comments is a privilege, not a right. This privilege can be abused and revoked. Abuse it and lose it.<BR/><BR/>* You are here as a houseguest. Behave like one or find yourself back on the curb!<BR/><BR/>* Ad hominem invective, as a substitute for reasoned argument, is unacceptable.<BR/><BR/>* Triablogue has the technical wherewithal to delete improper comments. We’re very loathe to exercise this prerogative, but there may be lurkers out there who have something they need to ask or want to say, but are scared off by the tone of the combox if it gets out of hand.<BR/><BR/>* There are trolls who, left to their own devices, will infiltrate the combox and take it over, turning the combox into a parasitic, parallel universe to further their own agenda. This is impermissible.<BR/><BR/>So, if you can't adhere to house rules, find the door and don't let it hit you on the way out.<BR/><BR/>And, you don't need to go away mad, just go away.<BR/><BR/>I don't have the time to babysit the comboxes of my posts. Post substance, honest critiques/questions, relevant objections, etc., or else crawl back into whatever atheist discussion board you came from. Since I've posted at many of them, I know full well that you can post something of zero substance and receive laudatory comments from your peers.<BR/><BR/>Hopefully I've been clear.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-3585599433557244672007-03-18T19:26:00.000-04:002007-03-18T19:26:00.000-04:00I wonder why Paul keeps deleting posts here?What i...I wonder why Paul keeps deleting posts here?<BR/><BR/>What is he afraid of?<BR/><BR/>I think he PWNS all those retard atheists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com