tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post4356798035744310946..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Animal clairvoyanceRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-20146268218368857472013-09-16T21:50:13.167-04:002013-09-16T21:50:13.167-04:00But a donkey isn't a gorilla, that's the p...<i>But a donkey isn't a gorilla, that's the problem.</i><br /><br />But God (or an angel by God's commission) could have spoken through the donkey without any changes needing to occur in the brain or vocal cords of the donkey. God (or an angel) could have spoken telepathically to make it appear like it was coming from the donkey's mouth. Or God (or an angel) could have manipulated air waves physically so that it appeared a voice was speaking out of the donkey's mouth. Besides, I don't see it as implausible for God to have temporarily granted the donkey high intelligence. <br /><br />I mentioned Ricky Roberts as a possible example of God increasing someone's intelligence and knowledge instantaneously. My argument didn't depend on the truth of Roberts claims. Maybe they are true, maybe not. It doesn't matter to me. The book by him and his mother, <i>A Walk Through Tears</i> allegedly has documentation. I have the book but I don't want to find it in my library. Unfortunately, the "<a href="http://www.truelightministries.org/records.shtml" rel="nofollow">documentation</a>" on his website is not as thorough as in the book.ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-54953185546855938492013-09-16T11:32:56.975-04:002013-09-16T11:32:56.975-04:00Since the donkey is a mouthpiece, the first person...Since the donkey is a mouthpiece, the first person is to be expected. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-71402632193141811122013-09-16T10:59:41.267-04:002013-09-16T10:59:41.267-04:00Steve: why was the first person used? I'm not ...Steve: why was the first person used? I'm not saying that if the third person were used "stop abusing this donkey through whom I am warning you!" that I'd believe it, but that would be more plausible as an act of God.<br /><br />Annoyed Pinnoy: But a donkey isn't a gorilla, that's the problem. Is there anything on Ricky Roberts that gives unbiased evidence of what you say? I can't see anything.<br /><br />Patrick: Ok I don't have the time, training or inclination (as Gen. Ripper would say) to research donkey mental capacities, so I'll concede the point, although I find it odd that people can teach tricks to dogs or cats, but they've never done so with donkeys. But as to your exegetical question 1, I think it's obvious, why else would the character of the donkey have brought this up? It looks like a protest. I'm not sure how it could otherwise be interpreted.<br /><br />This is the problem with the OT. Paul can be modern and carry on extended rational arguments. The OT seems to have a primitive, artificial story-telling about it. Thus theology seems to be something that evolved. People refining their ideas as they go along. It doesn't look like something divinely revealed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-7770703938724326822013-09-14T16:45:19.709-04:002013-09-14T16:45:19.709-04:00This was a very interesting article. Thanks Steve....This was a very interesting article. Thanks Steve.Nomosianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05526452517990728704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-26373632712631612882013-09-13T23:09:52.935-04:002013-09-13T23:09:52.935-04:00Thnuh Thnuh said:
Dogs can only remember what hap...Thnuh Thnuh said:<br /><br /><b>Dogs can only remember what happened 15 seconds ago. How could a donkey possibly have remembered years of faithful service? How could a donkey possibly have notions of justice (ie. "Am I not your donkey, on which you have ridden all your life long to this day? Is it my habit to treat you this way?"... with the implication that "therefore it is unjust of you to beat me", etc.)?</b><br /><br />1. How does the verse you cite imply the donkey has "notions of justice" such as we do, that "therefore it is unjust of you to beat me? <br /><br />2. Of course, if the donkey is capable of some level of moral reasoning, then this would seem to reflect some level of intelligence as well. Intelligence and moral reasoning could be suggestive of longer term memory than you're assuming about donkeys. If that's right, then your criticism appears to be internally inconsistent.<br /><br />3. In any case, a donkey's memory isn't necessarily the same as a dog's memory.<br /><br />4. If the following is accurate, then donkeys are quite intelligent, which again perhaps could be indicative of a better memory than you seem to think they're capable of:<br /><br />"Larger brain capacity is evidenced by the fact that donkeys require bridles with a larger browband than that needed for a comparable size of horse or pony. Donkeys are reported to have developed an intelligence superior to that of the horses, but its instincts give rise of different behavior, in certain circumstances, which many misconstrue as stubbornness. For example, it is not the nature of the donkey to run in panic when frightened as the horse instinctively does. Under the same conditions donkeys are more likely to stop, stand still and study the situation carefully to determine the best course of action." (<a href="http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex598" rel="nofollow">source</a>)Patrick Chanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16095377877712197984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-36685162385935088082013-09-13T19:57:43.780-04:002013-09-13T19:57:43.780-04:00To Thnuh Thnuh:
Besides God being the ventriloquis...To Thnuh Thnuh:<br />Besides God being the ventriloquist, God's "opening the mouth of the donkey" could have involved angelic possession of the donkey similar to the demonic possession of pigs in the Gospels. Also, why would it be impossible or implausible for God to have temporarily given the donkey the intelligence to remember his past and to be able to think and speak? In a span of millions of years evolution supposedly resulted in primates eventually developing into humans who could think and speak. Why couldn't God do the same instantly with the donkey? If scientists can hope for and even expect the possibility of self-aware Strong AI from non-aware microchips, how much more could God turn an already aware animal into a SELF-aware animal on the level of a human or Gorilla? Koko the Gorilla allegedly can understand 2,000 English words and 1,000 words in American sign language. Koko can use basic sign language too. Also, Adam and Eve were probably created with instant knowledge without the need to inductively learn things gradually like language. I don't know if the claim is true, but allegedly Ricky Roberts (NOT Oral Roberts' son) had an I.Q. of 3 points above "moron" and in answer to prayer God increased his intelligence and filled gaps in his knowledge. He eventually earned multiple doctorate degrees.<br /><a href="http://sidroth.org/search?combine=ricky+roberts" rel="nofollow">http://sidroth.org/search?combine=ricky+roberts</a><br /><br />Or on Youtube here: <a href="http://youtu.be/Nhr-rKcbrDA" rel="nofollow">http://youtu.be/Nhr-rKcbrDA</a>ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-66564889094887757452013-09-13T19:19:57.794-04:002013-09-13T19:19:57.794-04:00This is a type of ventriloquy. God is to the ventr...This is a type of ventriloquy. God is to the ventriloquist as the donkey is to the dummy. <br /><br />Animals can be naturally clairvoyant, even though the "speech" is supernatural. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-58253635935201028992013-09-13T18:41:04.854-04:002013-09-13T18:41:04.854-04:00There's a more basic problem with the story th...There's a more basic problem with the story that would make comparisons with supposed real life similar incidents unnecessary. This narrative couldn't have happened the way it is reported.<br /><br />Let's say an omnipotent God existed and decided to talk to Balaam through the donkey. The donkey would have said "This is God, talking through the donkey, and I'm giving you a last warning...", etc. etc.<br /><br />But if God really "opened" the mouth of the donkey, (ie. let the donkey speak what was on its mind, such as it is), it would not have said what is reported. Dogs can only remember what happened 15 seconds ago. How could a donkey possibly have remembered years of faithful service? How could a donkey possibly have notions of justice (ie. "Am I not your donkey, on which you have ridden all your life long to this day? Is it my habit to treat you this way?"... with the implication that "therefore it is unjust of you to beat me", etc.)? It bears the mark of anthropomorphic fiction that someone made up who did not know any better.<br /><br /><br />You can say that you are focusing on "clairvoyance". Ok, but the above is still relevant. Since it would point to the fact that the tale is a fiction, you cannot redeem any factuality of the tale by saying that it has something in common with something that happened in real life. Many fictional tales have events that parallel real life. The fictional aspects trump any parallel to real life that they may have.<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-73363980359907111832013-09-13T15:33:48.049-04:002013-09-13T15:33:48.049-04:00I have a friend whose parents are antique dealers....I have a friend whose parents are antique dealers. They specialize in Colonial items. This was years ago, but they had collected some 'witch balls' which are supposed to ward off evil spirits and whatnot. They had a dog who seemed to hate these things. Occasionally as he passed by a display of these 'witch balls' he would bark and growl at them sometimes fiercely. I think they later got rid of them. MSChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05419145542442539462noreply@blogger.com