tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post4345879215870765109..comments2024-03-14T14:41:17.663-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Agent of chaosRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-73782304960395302372016-11-28T20:16:34.684-05:002016-11-28T20:16:34.684-05:00Cletus Van Damme
"RCism never said those in ...Cletus Van Damme<br /><br />"RCism never said those in mortal sin never take communion unworthily, or that priests can never fail in their discernment or will never make errors in giving the sacraments."<br /><br />You're playing bait-n-switch. I'm not talking about priests who unwittingly administer communion to people in a state of mortal sin. Rather, I'm discussing an official policy of administering communion to people in a state of mortal sin. At least, presumptively in a state of mortal sin. <br /><br />And that's not just my personal opinion, as an outside observer. Rather, that's why the Roman church is on the brink of civil war. Bishops and cardinals are taking sides on this issue. They understand the stakes. <br /><br />Regarding Francis on homosexuality, he plays a two-step. He hides behind point men like Cardinal Kasper. Let's them send up the trial balloons. Let's them take the flack. But they wouldn't be his point men in the first place without the tacit approval of Francis. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-26427618320558386732016-11-28T16:21:57.486-05:002016-11-28T16:21:57.486-05:00You can't minimize this. You are a nobody with...You can't minimize this. You are a nobody with a private opinion. This dispute is far more than "encouragement for liberals". This is a door wide open for pope, cardinals, bishops, whole countries. And further, it is a blueprint for such "encouragement" on different topics in the future. John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-4486465337465735952016-11-28T15:13:46.638-05:002016-11-28T15:13:46.638-05:00"how can these "subjective" factors..."how can these "subjective" factors over-ride the fact that objectively, a continuous and continuing state of adultery is put into place."<br /><br />They don't override it. A person who commits a grave sin still committed a grave sin, but they still might not be in a state of mortal sin due to various factors that can mitigate their personal culpability (ignorance, duress, deception, psychology, etc). AL is not a document saying "you're okay, i'm okay, we're all okay".<br /><br />The reason for the continuing controversy is summed up by Douthat's op-ed:<br />"In his new letter on marriage and the family, the pope does not endorse a formal path to communion for the divorced and remarried, which his allies pushed against conservative opposition at two consecutive synods in Rome, and which would have thrown Catholic doctrine on the indissolubility of marriage (and sexual ethics writ large) into flagrant self-contradiction… There is still a formal teaching that remarriage without an annulment is adultery, that adultery is a mortal sin, that people who persist in mortal sins should not receive communion. And there is no structure or system in church life that contradicts any of this. This much conservatives still have, and it’s enough to stave off a sense of immediate theological crisis... Again, this is not the clear change of doctrine, the proof of concept for other changes, that many liberal bishops and cardinals sought. But it is an encouragement for innovation on the ground, for the de facto changes that more sophisticated liberal Catholics believe will eventually render certain uncomfortable doctrines as dead letters without the need for a formal repudiation from the top.”<br /><br />"Encouragement for liberals" is not a contradiction of RC dogma. Liberalism has had to be battled within RCism for over a century with both stronger and weaker popes and bishops; that's not new or surprising. Cletus Van Dammehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13749634619890462132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-15009999218327188622016-11-28T14:47:37.228-05:002016-11-28T14:47:37.228-05:00since being in a state of mortal sin includes subj...<i>since being in a state of mortal sin includes subjective factors (knowledge, consent, will) as well as objective ones (the gravity of the sin itself), there is no conflict between the 2 irreformable principles.</i><br /><br />This is the very thing in question: how can these "subjective" factors over-ride the fact that objectively, a continuous and continuing state of adultery is put into place. But people don't accidentally get divorced, and they don't accidentally get married. Which is really what you are saying. <br /><br />The conservatives absolutely refuse to let these "subjective" factors even be put into a place to overshadow the "objective" situation. In this document, "Pope Francis" is really trying to get the nose of the camel inside the tent, and this is the very thing that the conservatives are objecting to. <br /><br />Interesting that you are among those who believes that "Pope Francis" now supercedes "John Paul the Great". John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-71430066988943000302016-11-28T14:25:38.924-05:002016-11-28T14:25:38.924-05:00"Hence, to intentionally open communion to re..."Hence, to intentionally open communion to recipients in a state of mortal sin facilitates evil."<br /><br />Right. But since being in a state of mortal sin includes subjective factors (knowledge, consent, will) as well as objective ones (the gravity of the sin itself), there is no conflict between the 2 irreformable principles. Application of principles is distinct from the principles themselves. RCism never said those in mortal sin never take communion unworthily, or that priests can never fail in their discernment or will never make errors in giving the sacraments. The practice of annullments does not contradict RCism's teaching that marriage is indissoluble. RCism has not done an about-face and said divorce, co-habitation, ss partnerships, etc. are now virtuous; it is reflecting on how best to pastor those in such situations in today's climate.<br /><br />"Francis also wants to liberalize church policy on homosexuals. He tipped his hand at the original synod."<br /><br />Here's what Francis said in AL:<br />“In discussing the dignity and mission of the family, the Synod Fathers observed that, ‘as for proposals to place unions between homosexual persons on the same level as marriage, there are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God’s plan for marriage and family’. It is unacceptable ‘that local Churches should be subjected to pressure in this matter and that international bodies should make financial aid to poor countries dependent on the introduction of laws to establish “marriage” between persons of the same sex’.” Cletus Van Dammehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13749634619890462132noreply@blogger.com