tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post413111056725470633..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Buy a swordRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-28143939353461110122016-01-10T13:43:16.282-05:002016-01-10T13:43:16.282-05:00"i) There's a lot of things in the Bible ..."i) There's a lot of things in the Bible the disciples didn't understand when it happened (the leaven of the pharisee in Marc 8:14-21 or the cross : Luke 9:45, 18:34)…"<br /><br />But those misunderstandings are corrected later in the narrative.<br /><br />"or that are not clarified for the christian reader like baptism for the dead…"<br /><br />That's a letter addressed at a particular audience which whom Paul had extensive contact. The reason we find the reference enigmatic is precisely because Paul's immediate audience (the Corinthians) presumably knew what he was alluding to, which is why he didn't spell it out. We don't have their background info.<br /><br />"Jesus saying "no divorce except for adultery" (so no divorce for domestic violence? What about Paul who says abandonment is a good ground? Does he go against Jesus? Clearly an important topic!)."<br /><br />An incomplete prohibition is not analogous to letting the disciples (future teachers of the church) think you mean the opposite of what you intended. If Jesus doesn't correct it, or the narrator, then that's cast in bronze. <br /><br />"Ἱκανόν ἐστιν = Enough it is = a sign of exasperation because they don't understand (Robert H. Stein, M. Eugene Boring, Luke Timothy Johnson, Fred B. Craddock)."<br /><br />Sure, you can cite commentators who construe it that way. You can also find erudite commentators like C. F. Evans who dispute that. In addition, that's not how the word is defined by standard lexicons like BDAG or Louw & Nida. So I'm dubious. <br /><br />V51 uses different words, so that's irrelevant.<br /><br />Mt 26:52 is beside the point. Naturally forcible resistance is misguided in that particular situation. To begin with, Jesus can protect himself better than they can, if it ever came to that. More to the point, he is supposed to let himself be taken into custody. It's part of the divine plan. <br /><br />"Now Jesus must not be clear because he said "But NOW, whoever..." (not when I'll send you in mission later.)"<br /><br />Don't be silly. The reference is proleptic. His arrest marks a dramatic turning point in the fortunes of the disciples. It doesn't mean everything will happen all at once. <br /><br />"So he's not clear when he should sometime (it's enough! = exasperation! Should have showed more reproof except v.51 + Matthew 26)."<br /><br />You are conflating your own interpretation with mine. My interpretation doesn't suggest that Jesus was unclear. Rather, the pacifist interpretation does. And Lk 22:51 is a red herring.<br /><br />"It seems to me that the only point of Jesus with "sell your stuff and buy a sword" is that Jesus is giving a figure of speech to help them realized that, with his arrest coming in a minute, the public opinion will radically change from hospitality to hostility."<br /><br />False dichotomy. That necessitates their taking precautions that were hitherto unnecessary when they were with Jesus or when he used to send them out on a mission to divinely foreseen receptive hosts.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-20826724784624033612016-01-10T11:37:25.274-05:002016-01-10T11:37:25.274-05:00Great, thank you!Great, thank you!Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11105347822651498373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62435716234280124142016-01-10T03:08:46.986-05:002016-01-10T03:08:46.986-05:00Just some quick observations and thoughts...
4. ...Just some quick observations and thoughts... <br /><br />4. i) There's a lot of things in the Bible the disciples didn't understand when it happened (the leaven of the pharisee in Marc 8:14-21 or the cross : Luke 9:45, 18:34) or that are not clarified for the christian reader like baptism for the dead, Jesus saying "no divorce except for adultery" (so no divorce for domestic violence? What about Paul who says abandonment is a good ground? Does he go against Jesus? Clearly an important topic!). It's not clear to me it's a good refutation. <br /><br />ii) Ἱκανόν ἐστιν = Enough it is = a sign of exasperation because they don't understand (Robert H. Stein, M. Eugene Boring, Luke Timothy Johnson, Fred B. Craddock). It's not literally drop it, but that's the implication of course, like he says in v.51 : Ἐᾶτε ἕως τούτου = permit until this, or 'Stop! No more of this'." With the parallel version in Matthew 26:52 : Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword." <br /><br />5 i) "At this juncture, two swords are more than enough because they don't need any swords at the moment. They will only need to protect themselves after Jesus ascends to the Father." Now Jesus must not be clear because he said "But NOW, whoever..." (not when I'll send you in mission later.) So he's not clear when he should sometime (it's enough! = exasperation! Should have showed more reproof except v.51 + Matthew 26). But now he's not clear but it's ok? <br /><br />It seems to me that the only point of Jesus with "sell your stuff and buy a sword" is that Jesus is giving a figure of speech to help them realized that, with his arrest coming in a minute, the public opinion will radically change from hospitality to hostility. <br /><br />For people who read French and wants to see the other side : <br />http://www.theophile.xyz/fr/2014/12/la-violence-dans-la-bible-reponse-a-un-musulman-partie-2/<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01456738346779756758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-78709516767885778912016-01-09T21:15:04.676-05:002016-01-09T21:15:04.676-05:00Here are four representative posts:
http://triabl...Here are four representative posts:<br /><br />http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2012/04/cherry-picking-pacifism.html<br /><br />http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2015/11/chic-pacifism.html<br /><br />http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2015/11/hipster-pacifism.html<br /><br />http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2016/01/swami-jesus.htmlstevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-23559059772197335882016-01-09T19:32:50.924-05:002016-01-09T19:32:50.924-05:00I think probably your best bet is to go to Google ...I think probably your best bet is to go to Google and enter "site:triablogue.blogspot.com pacifism"Matheteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13527032591499860552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-52433814051712836572016-01-09T18:48:50.085-05:002016-01-09T18:48:50.085-05:00Very helpful, thanks. IMHO the whole question of n...Very helpful, thanks. IMHO the whole question of non-resistance/pacifism is one of the most vexing facing the New Covenant believer. Taken literally, it appears the weight of NT scripture leans toward physical non-resistance to evil. Do you have links to other posts on this topic? Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11105347822651498373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-83261066027422042262016-01-09T18:05:47.980-05:002016-01-09T18:05:47.980-05:00This is good; thank you SteveThis is good; thank you SteveAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com