tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post3895765881173438365..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Cohort of the damnedRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-65658724689238212412008-07-08T11:59:00.000-04:002008-07-08T11:59:00.000-04:00Steve, You wrote, “I’d add that ‘perception’ of li...Steve, You wrote, “I’d add that ‘perception’ of life changes or ‘perception’ of spiritual transformation is hardly synonymous with actual life changes or spiritual transformation.”<BR/><BR/>How can a person tell the difference between an actual life change or spiritual transformation in their own life and what they perceive and believe to be a life change or spiritual transformation in their own life?bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-33011539061721509742008-07-05T18:15:00.000-04:002008-07-05T18:15:00.000-04:00Steve, You wrote, "You keep inverting objective st...Steve, You wrote, "You keep inverting objective states (regeneration, sanctification) to subjective impressions (the perception of x)."<BR/><BR/>Since Scripture does not objectively say, "Steve is regenerate," aren't you left with the subjective, i.e., what you subjectively perceive and believe to be true with respect to regeneration in your case?bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-24666628366449023602008-07-04T17:18:00.000-04:002008-07-04T17:18:00.000-04:00You keep inverting objective states (regeneration,...You keep inverting objective states (regeneration, sanctification) to subjective impressions (the perception of x). I've already addressed that question. I don't need to repeat myself.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-57919263073304417632008-07-03T22:21:00.000-04:002008-07-03T22:21:00.000-04:00Thanks again for the reply. You wrote, "Since I'm...Thanks again for the reply. You wrote, "Since I'm basically using 'spiritual transformation' as a synonym for the type of spiritual renewal characterized by regeneration and sanctification, the question answers itself."<BR/><BR/>Do you think that a person can be orthodox (i.e., they believe the Westminster Shorter Catechism), have personal application of those truths, <B>have what they believe to be spiritual transformation due to those beliefs</B> (e.g., they have greater interest in Scripture, they attend church regularly, and they pray more) and still not be regenerate?bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-70480532891980963242008-07-03T19:56:00.000-04:002008-07-03T19:56:00.000-04:00interested spectator said:"Thanks for the reply. D...interested spectator said:<BR/><BR/>"Thanks for the reply. Do you think that a person can be orthodox (i.e., they believe the Westminster Shorter Catechism), have personal application of those truths, have life changes or spiritual transformation due to those beliefs (e.g., they have greater interest in Scripture, they attend church regularly, and they pray more) and still not be regenerate?"<BR/><BR/>Since I'm basically using "spiritual transformation" as a synonym for the type of spiritual renewal characterized by regeneration and sanctification, the question answers itself.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-36523213970271634132008-07-03T00:21:00.000-04:002008-07-03T00:21:00.000-04:00Thanks for the reply. Do you think that a person ...Thanks for the reply. Do you think that a person can be orthodox (i.e., they believe the Westminster Shorter Catechism), have personal application of those truths, have life changes or spiritual transformation due to those beliefs (e.g., they have greater interest in Scripture, they attend church regularly, and they pray more) and still not be regenerate?bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-34440431739475045102008-07-02T15:21:00.000-04:002008-07-02T15:21:00.000-04:00To begin with, an emotional investment in Christia...To begin with, an emotional investment in Christian doctrine was never a sufficient condition of regeneracy. I merely mentioned the lack of emotional investment as a mark of unregeneracy.<BR/><BR/>It’s quite possible to be emotionally moved by something without undergoing a basic change. A slumlord can go see a tearjerker like Shirley Temple in The Little Princess, cry his eyes out over her plight of her indigent living conditions, while reverting to form as soon as he exits the movie theater.<BR/><BR/>I’d add that “perception” of life changes or “perception” of spiritual transformation is hardly synonymous with actual life changes or spiritual transformation. I was speaking of objective change/transformation, not a subjective impressions thereof.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-89539089187971166242008-07-01T11:33:00.000-04:002008-07-01T11:33:00.000-04:00Do you think that a person can be orthodox (i.e., ...Do you think that a person can be orthodox (i.e., they believe the Westminster Shorter Catechism), have what they sense to be personal application of those truths and emotional investment in those truths, perceive what they believe to be life changes and spiritual transformation due to those beliefs, and still not be regenerate?bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-79332298758087493662008-06-30T19:15:00.000-04:002008-06-30T19:15:00.000-04:00The reprobate can be hardened by revealed truth, b...The reprobate can be hardened by revealed truth, but they aren't spiritually transformed.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-58679755330080320962008-06-30T17:20:00.000-04:002008-06-30T17:20:00.000-04:00Steve, Thanks again for the reply. You wrote, “I ...Steve, Thanks again for the reply. You wrote, “I didn’t say that revealed truths have the same transformative effect ('life-changing impact') on the regenerate and unregenerate alike. Clearly they don’t.”<BR/><BR/>Can belief in the revealed truth (e.g., belief in the propositions of Westminster Shorter Catechism) have a transformative effect on the unregenerate? Do you think that a person can be orthodox (i.e., they believe the Westminster Shorter Catechism), have what they sense to be personal application of those truths and emotional investment in those truths, perceive what they believe to be life changes due to those beliefs, and still not be regenerate?bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-68626485461065074052008-06-30T12:04:00.000-04:002008-06-30T12:04:00.000-04:00I didn’t say that revealed truths have the same tr...I didn’t say that revealed truths have the same transformative effect (“life-changing impact”) on the regenerate and unregenerate alike. Clearly they don’t.<BR/><BR/>There’s also a difference between rational and irrational doubt. Should I doubt my sanity just became lunatics are deluded about their own sanity?stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-64754822711264424632008-06-30T11:17:00.000-04:002008-06-30T11:17:00.000-04:00Steve, You wrote, “…there are psychological and/or...Steve, You wrote, “…there are psychological and/or phenomenological borderline cases.” Can the individual themselves tell whether or not they are a borderline case? If unregenerate faith can believe the exact same propositions as regenerate faith and those propositions can have the same importance and life-changing impact on the individual, how, at any given moment of time, can a person tell the difference in themselves between regenerate faith and unregenerate faith? In other words, how, at any given moment in time, can a person know if they are believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, or if they are exercising unregenerate faith?bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-86627372890217470882008-06-27T19:46:00.000-04:002008-06-27T19:46:00.000-04:00Although there’s no crossover or overlap between e...Although there’s no crossover or overlap between elect and reprobate, there are psychological and/or phenomenological borderline cases. Due to common grace, the reprobate are often more virtuous than they should be. Due to residual sin, the elect are usually worse than they should be. <BR/><BR/>As a result, one can’t automatically tell the difference between elect and reprobate. Some reprobates or unregenerates are more outwardly pious than some of God’s children. But God’s children have hidden reserves. It’s the difference between fair-weather faith and Timex faith (“Takes a lickin’ but keeps on tickin’!”).<BR/><BR/>In general, unregenerate believers tend to be of two varieties: indifferent, but orthodox believers and intense, but unorthodox believers.<BR/><BR/>The former group believes all the right things, but there’s no personal application. No emotional investment. <BR/><BR/>The latter group are more emotionally invested and temporally committed. However, their flawed theology incubates false expectations which are eventually dashed by rude experience. <BR/><BR/>The former group can remain in its state of nominal faith for a lifetime. The latter group is apt to flame out. <BR/><BR/>Due to the aforesaid ambiguities, it isn’t possible to get much more specific than that.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-64952837909468769452008-06-27T17:00:00.000-04:002008-06-27T17:00:00.000-04:00Thanks for the reply. Do you think it is possible...Thanks for the reply. Do you think it is possible for the propositions of the Westminster Shorter Catechism to mean something to a person at a personal level, for that person to care about those truths, to sense that they can’t live without those truths, and to have their life changed by those truths and for that person not be regenerate? Thanks again.bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-28359900179086021722008-06-26T17:05:00.000-04:002008-06-26T17:05:00.000-04:00interested spectator said:"What is the difference ...interested spectator said:<BR/><BR/>"What is the difference between an abstract truth and a concrete truth, i.e., are the propositions of the Westminster Shorter Catechism abstract truth or concrete truth? Thanks again."<BR/><BR/>The distinction should be self-explanatory. It's the difference between truths and true beliefs. How a truth is regarded by the believer (or unbeliever, for that matter).stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-10507881441084021662008-06-26T14:43:00.000-04:002008-06-26T14:43:00.000-04:00Steve wrote, “It has to mean something to you at a...Steve wrote, “It has to mean something to you at a personal level. Something you care about. Something you can't live without. It's not just a case of believing a set of abstract truths. They must be life-changing truths.”<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the reply. Do you think it is possible for the propositions of the Westminster Shorter Catechism to mean something to a person at a personal level, for that person to care about those truths, to sense that they can’t live without those truths, and to have their life impacted by those truths and for that person not be regenerate? What is the difference between an abstract truth and a concrete truth, i.e., are the propositions of the Westminster Shorter Catechism abstract truth or concrete truth? Thanks again.bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1244113385832220922008-06-26T07:57:00.000-04:002008-06-26T07:57:00.000-04:00interested spectator said:"What specifically is th...interested spectator said:<BR/><BR/>"What specifically is the "more" that is required in addition to understanding and agreeing with (i.e., intellectual assenting to) the truth of the Christian gospel?"<BR/><BR/>It has to mean something to you at a personal level. Something you care about. Something you can't live without. It's not just a case of believing a set of abstract truths. They must be life-changing truths.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-52714936974828830592008-06-25T10:03:00.000-04:002008-06-25T10:03:00.000-04:00Steve wrote, "It's possible to be an orthodox, nom...Steve wrote, "It's possible to be an orthodox, nominal believer. There's more to saving faith than bare intellectual assent."<BR/><BR/>What specifically is the "more" that is required in addition to understanding and agreeing with (i.e., intellectual assenting to) the truth of the Christian gospel?bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-39751067180649677622008-06-24T18:39:00.000-04:002008-06-24T18:39:00.000-04:00interested spectator said:"Do you think that it is...interested spectator said:<BR/><BR/>"Do you think that it is possible for a person to believe all the propostional truths espoused by the Westminster Shorter Catechism and not be regenerate? Thanks."<BR/><BR/>It's possible to be an orthodox, nominal believer. There's more to saving faith than bare intellectual assent.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62738944362588713232008-06-24T18:05:00.000-04:002008-06-24T18:05:00.000-04:00Steve, You wrote, "Why not review the Westminster ...Steve, You wrote, "Why not review the Westminster Shorter Catechism for starters? That’s more than enough—by a long shot."<BR/><BR/>Do you think that it is possible for a person to believe all the propostional truths espoused by the Westminster Shorter Catechism and not be regenerate? Thanks.bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-66256778578889268862008-06-23T17:17:00.000-04:002008-06-23T17:17:00.000-04:00TU...AD,That's about what I was thinking. More or...TU...AD,<BR/><BR/>That's about what I was thinking. More or less.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-9969024594105864502008-06-23T15:50:00.000-04:002008-06-23T15:50:00.000-04:00To Peter Pike:Precisely.;-)To Peter Pike:<BR/><BR/>Precisely.<BR/><BR/>;-)Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-10488263178228647642008-06-23T15:45:00.000-04:002008-06-23T15:45:00.000-04:00Interested Spectator,Can you tell me how precise p...Interested Spectator,<BR/><BR/>Can you tell me how precise precisely must be before it's precise instead of approximate?<BR/><BR/>Thanks.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-6672448408275432762008-06-23T15:40:00.000-04:002008-06-23T15:40:00.000-04:00It's not my responsibility to give more precise an...It's not my responsibility to give more precise answers than God has given. <BR/><BR/>Scripture contains some generic what-you-must-do-to-be-saved statements.<BR/><BR/>However, these generic statements don't define their terms.<BR/><BR/>Implicit definitions are supplied by other statements of Scripture—which fill in the blanks. <BR/><BR/>How much blank-filling God requires of any particular individual is not for me to say.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-78584759818998476032008-06-23T15:31:00.000-04:002008-06-23T15:31:00.000-04:00Thanks again for the reply. You wrote, "It's less...Thanks again for the reply. You wrote, "It's less a question of 'how much' than 'how little.' It's clear that the doctrinal content of the Philippian jailor's faith was less than the WSC."<BR/><BR/>Does that mean that Scripture is unclear about what precisely it means to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" or believe "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God"?bellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263644056413736693noreply@blogger.com