tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post370154870721359477..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: The libertarian conundrumRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-27835885136342109082009-09-14T11:25:19.368-04:002009-09-14T11:25:19.368-04:00It just occurred to me - if true love can only com...It just occurred to me - if true love can only come by free will, then how loving is God to give anyone free will who will choose otherwise? Is it not more loving for God to turn that person into a robot for the sake of that person?<br /><br />Rather, I think the Arminians' concept of love is skewed. Godly love is not a matter of absolute freedom, which is divisive, but of submission and restraint for the purpose of relational cohesion. Libertarian free will cannot submit. If it does, it's no longer libertarian free will. That's why our will must be limited. If we chose God, we haven't chosen him based on free will, but rather that it is in accordance with his will. (Don't the Arminians love to point out that God doesn't desire any to perish?) If we choose other than God then we are enslaved to sin. Both are within the bounds of God's creation and our will is at least restricted in that manner. There is no middle ground. Therefore, God's love is absolutely cohesive with his elect and absolutely divisive with those who are not his elect for the sake of the value of his love with the elect.Jim Pembertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446388434272680014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-64327777881418325912009-08-28T15:03:09.314-04:002009-08-28T15:03:09.314-04:00This has already been addressed in the concept of ...This has already been addressed in the concept of the gnomic will.<br /><br />http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2009/08/17/more-jedi-mind-tricks/<br /><br />http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2005/01/30/simplicity-virtue-and-the-problem-of-evil-pt-1/<br /><br />http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2005/02/12/simplicity-virtue-and-the-problem-of-evil-pt-2-3/Acolyte4236https://www.blogger.com/profile/06247421363309732839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-59425254596770537742009-08-28T10:15:04.560-04:002009-08-28T10:15:04.560-04:00My problem with this whole debate over freedom is ...My problem with this whole debate over freedom is that Libertarian Freedom is a presupposition that can't really be defended on Biblical grounds. Scripture deals with freedom in an entirely different paradigm. <br /><br />In the natural, we see degrees of freedom. People in various countries are allowed various degrees of freedom by their government. The tighter a government's control over its citizens the less freedom we would say they have. It could be said that they are less free (as opposed to simply "not free") when compared to citizens of another country. The more a gov't limits or influences the decisions of the citizens, the less free they are. Using this view of freedom, it could be said that the more a Christian is influenced or compelled by God and the more submitted to him they are, the less free they are. But this is not the case. In fact, it is the opposite! And it is not as though the more freely we choose God the more limited God's grace is to us. There is no opposition between the two in scripture. If we place human freedom and divine sovereignty in opposition we are outside the bounds of scripture and we have gone from a biblical definition of freedom to a secular and philosophical definition of freedom. In this view of freedom, followed through to its conclusion, God's divine power cannot help but rob man of his humanity. Rather, the freedom God is concerned with is found in being conformed to his image (and that of one that cannot sin) not one of arbitrary choice.<br /><br />In the Bible, freedom is not contrasted with submission. Rather, we are only free in our submission to Christ. If we come to scripture with an idea of Libertarian Freedom we find the language of the Bible confusing and even offensive when it speaks of being slaves of righteousness, bondslaves of Christ, and complete submission.<br /><br />The Bible does not tell us that we are enslaved because we are unable to order our own way, but that we are in fact enslaved to the very extent that we have ordered our own way. The enslaved will is attempted autonomy. As such, to "autonomously" (which is what most people mean when they say "freely") submit to Christ is a contradiction in terms.<br /><br />(Note: The above is from some notes I was taking while studying the nature of freedom and I neglected to write down the source(s) I was reading at the time. The words are mine, but I make no exclusive claim on the ideas.)jluce50https://www.blogger.com/profile/01870208813299361866noreply@blogger.com