tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post3184676275674253189..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: For anyone considering Eastern OrthodoxyRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-72783239356423850192012-06-20T17:49:51.329-04:002012-06-20T17:49:51.329-04:00What, you think it's my job to conduct a witch...What, you think it's my job to conduct a witch hunt and interview the world's priests? Not really. Why do you think I should?<br /><br />Or about some churches came "close" to excommunicating each other. Again, not sure what you're talking about, nor why I should be concerned. Threat of excommunication sometimes keeps everyone in line. <br /><br />Nt sure what your link proves about liberalism in EO clergy.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977287092917957220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-10939565359466869982012-06-20T15:04:30.696-04:002012-06-20T15:04:30.696-04:00Don't you think you should maybe learn about s...Don't you think you should maybe learn about such things?<br /><br />And <a href="http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2012/06/05/the-pharisees-of-sodom/#comment-13348" rel="nofollow">as for liberalism within EOC...</a>Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-58739859476426418312012-06-20T09:07:56.802-04:002012-06-20T09:07:56.802-04:00If you say so. I have no knowledge of such things....If you say so. I have no knowledge of such things.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977287092917957220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-179966842350240862012-06-20T08:49:14.280-04:002012-06-20T08:49:14.280-04:00excommunicating *anotherexcommunicating *anotherRhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-37591461698346779492012-06-20T08:48:16.230-04:002012-06-20T08:48:16.230-04:00It is so clear that bunches of the clergy are libe...It is so clear that bunches of the clergy are liberal as to be beyond doubt, but I don't expect you to admit it. <br /><br />Jack chick's aspersions do not approach the gravity of EO aspersions against the West. And remember, one church != an entire societal system.<br /><br />Do you remember when one of the major EO churches got <b>this close</b> to excommunicating the other?Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-67970948774264856032012-06-20T08:45:10.754-04:002012-06-20T08:45:10.754-04:00Let's wait for the evidence that "bunches...Let's wait for the evidence that "bunches" of clergy are liberal.<br /><br />Anti western aspersions are amazing? Yes they are sometimes. Amazing things happen in all corners of society and the earth. More "amazing" aspersions happen in protestantism though. I mean, just two words: jack chick.<br /><br />Endless squabbles between cultural outposts? I occasionally hear of squabbles, but here on the ground there is calm, cooperation and close ties. It's a bit like judging a marriage by only the visible arguments,Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977287092917957220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-28005096755186193372012-06-20T08:38:47.491-04:002012-06-20T08:38:47.491-04:00While you're right about the many who are irra...While you're right about the many who are irrationally anti-Catholic, anti-Western is not comparable to being anti-Catholic. It's much broader, and the blame and aspersions cast are amazing. <br /><br />If bunches of the EO clergy are liberal, that doesn't matter? Are you even aware what liberalism is? I recommend you read Machen's "Christianity and Liberalism".<br /><br />When the cultural outpost mentality leads to endless squabbles between cultural outposts, the problem is not merely imaginary.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-37762544315797951092012-06-20T05:27:44.700-04:002012-06-20T05:27:44.700-04:00Well, when something is in evidence, the meaning c...Well, when something is in evidence, the meaning can be discussed.<br /><br />Of course, the Orthodox church lived through great chunks of it being Arian, so I don't think some new heresy is going to be a major theological difficulty.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977287092917957220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-52267210950676445752012-06-20T05:15:07.607-04:002012-06-20T05:15:07.607-04:00I knew the good Parson when he was living through ...I knew the good Parson when he was living through this, and if I recall, his main point was NOT that "OCA members" are liberal, but precisely because bishops and patriarchs were liberal. He was very thorough citing his sources -- this discovery took a number of years.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-55980999963564312612012-06-20T03:11:03.885-04:002012-06-20T03:11:03.885-04:00From reading article, the claim seems to be that m...From reading article, the claim seems to be that many OCA members are liberal. No claim was made about the clergy. Not sure how that impacts EOs claim to be the One Church. Perhaps Rhology, you could explain that.<br /><br />Not sure why virulant anti-westernism is a particularly convincing argument not to be Orthodox. Protestantism is often virulently anti-catholic, to the point of absurdity. This posting cld be described as virulently anti Orthodox.<br /><br />The cultural outpost thing might be a problem, but it mostly a problem in your own mind, rather than real. Ive been to cultural outpost churches for a while, and felt odd for a while, until I realised it was in my head and not theirs.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977287092917957220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-85481309831828740132012-06-20T01:41:30.295-04:002012-06-20T01:41:30.295-04:00It allows an opening to "practice" with ...It allows an opening to "practice" with impunity: They "can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection". But in the meantime, a good poke here or there is quite all right, because there's always confession. This is quite different from pronouncing the act a grave sin which ought never to be done.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-7962513203304499182012-06-19T15:56:50.036-04:002012-06-19T15:56:50.036-04:00I know you disagree with them, but you had a probl...I know you disagree with them, but you had a problem with the criticism. I showed you why the criticism is valid - it's b/c of EOC's claims about itself. That's what you need to deal with to maintain your rebuttal of the criticism.<br /><br />Lack of centralisation can be good and bad, but that just sounds like you're making excuses for them rather than showing why the criticism was unjustified.<br /><br />Baptists don't have the option to cut and run either. I don't even know what you're talking about. Unless you mean leaving a church body that has become apostate. Well, on that you'll need to let us know why the true followers of Christ shouldn't do their best to maintain pure worship of the One True God when tons of so-called followers are running the show. <br /><br />The door hit liberals in the case of the CBF. But what bearing does that have on what I said?Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-23353621868505241642012-06-19T15:46:39.535-04:002012-06-19T15:46:39.535-04:00Rhology,
Crude is forgetting that the EOC prides...Rhology, <br /><br /><i>Crude is forgetting that the EOC prides itself on being One Church - The One Unique Holy Apostolic Church.</i><br /><br />I don't forget it. And of course I disagree with them. I disagree with many Christians over many things. But I also respect many of them despite the differences, and I try to avoid launching criticisms that are a mix of woefully inadequate, inaccurate, or hypocritical.<br /><br /><i>By virtue of its claims to being all unified and One Body and all that, it has to deal with the liberalism to which it has ceded all sorts of ground in a very different way than, say, I do as a Baptist.</i><br /><br />First, the orthodox are in a different position than the RC on this front - they're not as centralized.<br /><br />Second, you're right that they have to deal with it in a different way. Putting aside the Holy Spirit for a moment, it also means they don't have the option to cut and run if they're sincere in their faith.<br /><br /><i>Don't let the door hit you on the way out.</i><br /><br />Here's one problem, Rhology: the door usually doesn't hit liberals. It hits conservatives, because they're the ones who end up leaving.Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-21834849598436846122012-06-19T15:40:50.378-04:002012-06-19T15:40:50.378-04:00I defy you to explain what is "pro-gay" ...I defy you to explain what is "pro-gay" about a CCC that calls homosexual acts gravely immoral and the desires objectively disordered.<br /><br />Or is it because you're one of those weird guys under the impression that the bible teaches that Christians should run around beating up any 'queers' they see?Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-84498896795378656092012-06-19T12:08:56.122-04:002012-06-19T12:08:56.122-04:00One of my favorite things about EOC is that Franky...One of my favorite things about EOC is that Franky Schaeffer is apparently still a member in good standing.<br />That guy combines several parts of what The Embryo Parson has identified - creepED liberalism (it's not creepING, it done creeped already) and virulent anti-Westernism. And of course a screwed-all-to-hell soteriology.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-35312487329085158032012-06-19T10:14:56.605-04:002012-06-19T10:14:56.605-04:00Crude is forgetting that the EOC prides itself on ...Crude is forgetting that the EOC prides itself on being One Church - The One Unique Holy Apostolic Church.<br />I don't know of any Prot body that would say the same. <br />By virtue of its claims to being all unified and One Body and all that, it has to deal with the liberalism to which it has ceded all sorts of ground in a very different way than, say, I do as a Baptist.<br />Some idiots want to start the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship and spend their days liberalising about how gay marriage is really OK, the Bible isn't inerrant, women pastrices really are biblical, and how whales and trees are more important than tiny humans? Don't let the door hit you on the way out.<br /><br />What will EOC do?Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-66823307772551191002012-06-19T00:03:42.695-04:002012-06-19T00:03:42.695-04:00The thing about this is, with Rome, the gay bishop...The thing about this is, with Rome, the gay bishops are still gay, still in the closet, and still practicing with impunity, and still <a href="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2359" rel="nofollow">looking for more pro-gay Roman Catholic doctrine they can write</a>.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62172696925471980642012-06-18T21:04:29.950-04:002012-06-18T21:04:29.950-04:00The good thing about the Presbyterians and the Ang...<i>The good thing about the Presbyterians and the Anglicans is that we can step away from the liberal elements in our midst.</i><br /><br />No, John, that's incorrect. With the Anglicans, the liberal elements have taken over - hence your "continuing Anglicanism" being a 'breakaway sect'. Which will itself likely require a breakaway sect in the future.<br /><br />Sure, you can always "step away", aka, "run away and create a new charge". Over and over, ad nauseum. At this point it's not stepping, it's full-blown line-dancing.<br /><br /><i>Roman Catholics like yourself are wedded to them.</i><br /><br />First, I'm Byzantine Catholic. Second, funny thing about that article. Let's look at some quotes!<br /><br />"The film offers a portrait of John McNeill, the Jesuit priest who was silenced in 1977 for his book The Church and the Homosexual and, nine years later, <b>was expelled from his order</b> for refusing to stay silent in his ministry to gay and lesbian Catholics."<br /><br />"At the peak of the AIDS crisis in 1986, in what may have been the worst pastoral timing in the Roman Catholic Church's recent history, Cardinal Ratzinger issued the CDF's "Letter on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons." <b>It defined homosexuality as "an objective disorder" and "a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil.</b>""<br /><br />"But viewers will also find inspiration in the fact that, only 25 years after McNeill's expulsion, Catholics are now the strongest supporters of gay and lesbian rights and same-sex marriage in the United States."<br /><br />Except A) this is in direct conflict with Catholic teaching and B) once again, if 'liberality among the laity' is the standard, next to no churches (and certainly not the anglicans) are left standing.<br /><br />And therein lies the difference. In the Catholic Church, the liberals are being hit with the Vatican hammer and fell out of prominence decades ago. <br /><br />Among the Anglicans and Presbyterians?<br /><br />The liberals won.Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-69696966417573544142012-06-18T20:45:01.519-04:002012-06-18T20:45:01.519-04:00The good thing about the Presbyterians and the Ang...The good thing about the Presbyterians and the Anglicans is that we can step away from the liberal elements in our midst. Roman Catholics like yourself are <a href="http://ncronline.org/blogs/grace-margins/new-documentary-depicts-jesuits-struggle-lgbt-rights" rel="nofollow">wedded to them</a>.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-9631122218611880962012-06-18T20:05:50.411-04:002012-06-18T20:05:50.411-04:00Which only begs the question: if finding specific ...Which only begs the question: if finding specific Anglican churches that happen to be conservative (as opposed to the many Anglicans who are not) is a solution to the 'liberal' problem, then I have another solution: find a conservative Orthodox church.<br /><br />"Ah," you say. "But the orthodox have liberal churches!"<br /><br />In which case, the Anglicans are ruled out too. Especially given the noticeably left out standard for "Creeping liberalism": how the laity is acting.<br /><br />If liberalism among the laity is a sign that a church is in a sorry state, you've got no options left. <a href="http://www.npr.org/2012/05/14/152653944/presbyterians-views-on-gay-marriage-vary" rel="nofollow">Just look at the Presbyterians.</a>Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62220539799098871982012-06-18T19:43:12.661-04:002012-06-18T19:43:12.661-04:00Maybe you missed it. The author (as I noted in the...Maybe you missed it. The author (as I noted in the first paragraph) is writing from a conservative [“Continuing”] Anglican perspective.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-8386022600394564082012-06-18T19:18:54.940-04:002012-06-18T19:18:54.940-04:00Creeping liberalism.
Because if there's one t...<i>Creeping liberalism.</i><br /><br />Because if there's one thing Anglican-associated churches are known for, it's their steadfast ability to resist liberalism!Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.com