tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post298919237910495695..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: On a wing and a prayerRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-4096840939553531342014-03-07T17:12:11.405-05:002014-03-07T17:12:11.405-05:00I think this needs to be emphasized to non-Calvini...I think this needs to be emphasized to non-Calvinists because of their strawman representations of what Calvinism entails. Also, emphasized among Calvinists lest we end up being less prayerful than we ought to be. <br /><br />Here's a link to Curt Daniel's lecture on "<a href="http://faithbibleonline.net/MP3s/The%20History%20and%20Theology%20of%20Calvinism/32%20-%20Prayer%20and%20the%20Sovereignty%20of%20God.mp3" rel="nofollow">Prayer and the Sovereignty of God</a>." It's from his 75 part lecture series <a href="http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/histtheocalvin.html" rel="nofollow">The History and Theology of Calvinism</a>ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-81563459267938740562014-03-07T17:05:01.561-05:002014-03-07T17:05:01.561-05:00Most Christians know this, but I think it's go...Most Christians know this, but I think it's good to be reminded of the following. <br /><br />There are two extremes professing Christians have a tendency to slide toward. Either the extreme of thinking that all things hinge on our prayers, or the extreme that teaches God's sovereignty to such an extent that it virtually makes prayer superfluous. <br /><br />A.W. Pink does a great job correcting the former error in chapter 9 of his classic book The Sovereignty of God. Here's the link to Chapter Nine: <a href="http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/sov_09.htm" rel="nofollow">God's Sovereignty and Prayer</a><br /><br />With regard to the other extreme, here's a short video of John Piper on "<a href="http://youtu.be/FgO-ogt90Bk" rel="nofollow">Prayer Causes Things to Happen</a>" (or <a href="http://youtu.be/krzwmhDMvv8" rel="nofollow">HERE</a>).<br /><br />Calvinists rightly believe that whatever happens, to the smallest degree, is positively ordained by God. And even if we speak of God's permission of certain things, we deny that it's a "bare permission". God wills willingly, not unwillingly. Yet, we Calvinists sometimes forget in practice (even if not in thought and theology) that God ordains both the ends and the means, along with ordaining causal connections. <br /><br /><b>Which means that SOMETIMES (not always) prayers are not answered because we just didn't pray enough or fervently enough. Or pray properly/correctly </b>. For example, hypothetically speaking, the disciples would have been able to cast out the demon out of the demoniac in Matt. 17:14ff. if they had had enough faith. As I pointed out in other comments (.e.g <a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2014/01/complete-healing.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>):<br /><br />"...[I]n God's sovereignty He also orchestrates the causal nexus of means and ends so that secondary causes can affect the degree of an outcome.<br /><br />For example, Elisha reprimanded Joash king of Israel for only striking the ground with his arrows 3 times. Elisha said that Joash should have struck the ground with his arrows 5 or 6 times.<br /><br /><i>18 And he </i>[i.e. Elisha]<i> said, "Take the arrows," and he took them. And he said to the king of Israel, "Strike the ground with them." And he struck three times and stopped.19 Then the man of God was angry with him and said, "You should have struck five or six times; then you would have struck down Syria until you had made an end of it, but now you will strike down Syria only three times."</i>- 2 Kings 13:18-19<br /><br />God is sovereign over the quality of our prayers and therefore also their degree of efficacy. Otherwise James 5:16b wouldn't make any sense, "...The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much" (cf. 1 John 3:22; John 15:7, 16; Ps. 34:15-17; 66:18; 145:18-19; Prov. 15:8, 29; 28:9)."ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-88103796955677348332014-03-07T02:22:58.453-05:002014-03-07T02:22:58.453-05:00Rauser and Breuer basically posit that their posit...Rauser and Breuer basically posit that their position is true by definition. That's conveniently immunizes their position from refutation. Unfortunately for them, their stipulative definition is begs the very question at issue. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-34903712207427003362014-03-07T01:29:13.596-05:002014-03-07T01:29:13.596-05:00This issue of God using people as a means to an en...This issue of God using people as a means to an end came up on Randal Rauser's blog last month: http://randalrauser.com/2014/02/is-god-a-user-a-response-to-nates-principle/<br /><br />His position is similar to Lydia's. You can see my comments there. I don't find it very convincing. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09814637968824994760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-68190535472850322992014-03-06T21:22:59.008-05:002014-03-06T21:22:59.008-05:00Lydia McGrew said...
God only gives good gifts, so...Lydia McGrew said...<br /><i>God only gives good gifts, so it must be that what you are asking Him to do, that He hasn't done, is not really for everyone's best good.</i><br /><br />In Scripture God promises to Work all things and to Do all things for the good (I'm not sure of "best") of the elect. There's no promise that God would do the same for the non-elect (whether temporally and [obviously] eternally).<br /><br />As a non-Calvinist, it's understandable that Lydia McGrew doesn't even consider the possibility or implications of an infant being non-elect. I personally don't discount the possibility that some infants are non-elect.<br /><br />Steve said...<br /><i>ii) However, in the same Gospels which contain unqualified promises, we have statements which implicitly qualify the force or scope of the promises. God will only give good things in answer to prayer. Since, however, Christians will at least occasionally (if not frequently) unwittingly pray for bad things, some prayers will go unanswered....</i><br /><br />Exactly. The Lord's point in His analogy is that what appears good to us can sometimes actually be bad given God's knowledge of all the factors involved and His plan for us individually and collectively. In the real world some stones can look like bread. Some snakes can actually look like fish. A scorpion, like an egg is hard on the outside and soft on the inside. But rather than being nutritious, on the contrary, scorpions (like snakes) can bite and kill with poison (Matt. 7:7-11 // Luke 11:9-13). ANNOYED PINOYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00714774340084597206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-12220545912817868812014-03-06T19:09:03.265-05:002014-03-06T19:09:03.265-05:00It seems implausible to say that a human being is ...It seems implausible to say that a human being is of "infinite worth." That's surely going to be problematic for a pecuniary view of the atonement (though Lydia may not take that view).Thomas Keningleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01624894562826380210noreply@blogger.com