tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post2859428862679867357..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: My Take on White v. WoodRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-44585030944348438492018-06-11T18:43:35.774-04:002018-06-11T18:43:35.774-04:00Lee
"I'm not convinced either. Atheists ...Lee<br /><br />"I'm not convinced either. Atheists have killed plenty of people and probably more in the past century than Islam."<br /><br />Like I said, I think it depends on the kind of atheism and the kind of Islam we're talking about. <br /><br />"Taking the ideology of Atheism to its logical conclusion results in a more dangerous person than an ideology of Islam."<br /><br />I don't know about that. If someone took Islam to its logical conclusion, then they could join other Muslims and attempt to conquer or subjugate the entire world under Islam. Until there is no more Dar al-Harb and all is Dar al-Islam.<br /><br />If someone took atheism to its logical conclusion, then they could commit suicide because they see no more point in living or they could continue to live as long as they can get away with it given societal confines. <br /><br />At worst, they might become a serial killer or serial rapist or other serial criminal. But evil people already exist, and the rest of society is able to deal with them. Of course, the atheist could become a Stalin or a Mao and murder millions, but that takes a particular kind of atheist (e.g. one charismatic enough for people to follow) as well as the right political, economical, societal, cultural, and perhaps other conditions for them to rise to such a position where they can murder millions. The average atheist couldn't do that. <br /><br />By contrast, the average Muslim already joins the worldwide Muslim community. If each average Muslim took their faith to its logical conclusion, then they'd want to see the entire world as Dar al-Islam.<br /><br />"In the end these people do terrible things because they are evil, either ideology will give an excuse for their violence."<br /><br />I agree.Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-19303343342751129302018-06-11T17:51:35.168-04:002018-06-11T17:51:35.168-04:00I'm not convinced either. Atheists have killed...I'm not convinced either. Atheists have killed plenty of people and probably more in the past century than Islam. Taking the ideology of Atheism to its logical conclusion results in a more dangerous person than an ideology of Islam. <br /><br />In the end these people do terrible things because they are evil, either ideology will give an excuse for their violence. Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08549715523150082445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-9988992713638828452018-06-11T16:47:08.224-04:002018-06-11T16:47:08.224-04:00White's call for consistency seems to be a lit...White's call for consistency seems to be a little bit dangerous to me. He seems to imply that the bible also has texts that would also lead one to the conclusion that they could not be true because they imply things that must be either absurd and/or demonstrably false. This is a fallacious equivalence on his part that we must not accept. Any part of our scripture can defend itself from being open to mockery because it is from the God of truth and infinite wisdom. White seems to imply that our scriptures have the same weakness as the islamic scriptures. This is what his consistency argument leads to in my view. It should be rejected. Our scriptures don't need to be defended by this tactic.Tollhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11321055147157191431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-81290119212624350782018-06-11T14:43:52.298-04:002018-06-11T14:43:52.298-04:00When I say there are many methods / means, I don&#...When I say there are many methods / means, I don't mean "seeker sensitive" type stuff like Andy Stanley or Bill Hybels, etc. I mean solid Biblical preaching and apologetics that also takes place over a long period of friendship, meals, coffee, hospitality, etc.<br /><br />That is the way it is done in the Muslim world, because they are very hospitable and USUALLY (not always; there are those that will do violence, etc. ) will listen when we learn their language and eat their food, and are not afraid and willing to suffer also. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-64363657072271193402018-06-11T14:39:54.616-04:002018-06-11T14:39:54.616-04:00Geoff -
That is the one thing that David Wood and ...Geoff -<br />That is the one thing that David Wood and his group did convince me of and changed my mind on - not what you wrote, just "leaving Islam for atheism per se"; <br /><br />rather leaving Jihadistic Islam (Isis, Taliban, Hamas, Al Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, Anjem Choudary types in Europe and USA, etc.) and leaving the ideology of subjugating the world and Dhimmi -ism (Surah 9:29) - for Muslims to leave that kind of Islam or temptation to join those groups - that makes the world / society better; and we can still pray for them later to come to Christ, trusting God in His sovereignty to work and keep sharing the gospel, etc.<br /><br />Most Muslims go through a process; see this video of Al Fadi, a former Muslim from Saudi Arabia.<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMn3C8Esm8E<br /><br />one of the main things I disagree with many Reformed folks ( and I am Calvinistic and Reformed), is that they seem to think evangelism is a 10 minute hit and run and then shake the dust off your feet - kind of method that seems to completely eschew or reject relationships / friendship / hospitality, process, etc. <br /><br />There are many methods/ means in evangelism, not only street preaching and 10 minute type things, while not rejecting all of those either. There is a place and time for all kinds of these kinds of methods; as long as it is not contrary to Scripture. <br /><br />There is a balance of the proper application of the verse "I have become all things to all people, in order that by all means, I may save some" see I Cor. 9:19-25<br /><br />But obviously, if all the atheists ban together later and create another Stalinist Soviet Union or Pol Pot's Cambodia or Mao's China, etc. - then I your point is a good one on that. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-59445278290758618362018-06-11T13:47:21.179-04:002018-06-11T13:47:21.179-04:00I just now watched day 26 - Jihad Junior vs. Kafir...I just now watched day 26 - Jihad Junior vs. Kafir King; I have to admit; it was very funny. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-44779559460360713872018-06-11T11:23:25.625-04:002018-06-11T11:23:25.625-04:00You're a nice and good guy, Ken. I think gener...You're a nice and good guy, Ken. I think generally speaking you are right to expect respectful dialogue. <br /><br />However, unfortunately, much of the rest of the world isn't as nice and good as you are. For example, look at how the late Muslim apologist Ahmed Deedat used to mock Christians. Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-54402358083573017972018-06-11T10:59:08.796-04:002018-06-11T10:59:08.796-04:00This is the kind of reasonable analysis and compar...This is the kind of reasonable analysis and comparison of Muhammad's Hadith vs. Jesus' teaching that I appreciate more (than the SouthPark and Family Guy Type humor of "Islamicize Me")<br /><br />But I guess what we are learning is that there are many different styles and ways of reaching people; in the greater body of Evangelicals. <br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX581PQJSxIAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-80845862056177499112018-06-11T10:21:01.943-04:002018-06-11T10:21:01.943-04:00Ken wrote: "But, yeah, I am depressed over al...Ken wrote: "But, yeah, I am depressed over all the fighting and energy spent on this stuff..." I am with you on that one. I think it's necessary, and I thank the Epistle of Dude for his response too, which makes it a bit more hopeful. But yeah, I feel the same way you do quite a bit on this topic too.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-84134821055604334932018-06-11T09:58:23.363-04:002018-06-11T09:58:23.363-04:00I suppose in every generation there are people who...I suppose in every generation there are people who are more attracted to low brow vs. high brow humor. In this respect, it's more of a personal thing. But as I recall I think Steve mentioned White being a PK which likewise shaped what he finds appropriate or inappropriate humor.Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-39918514716382596902018-06-11T09:56:03.310-04:002018-06-11T09:56:03.310-04:00Thanks, Ken! I seriously appreciate your ministry ...Thanks, Ken! I seriously appreciate your ministry very much! <br /><br />"Thanks for the other comment about Southpark and Family Guy, etc. If it is not a generational thing, I wonder what it is. why some people like that style of humor."<br /><br />To be fair, I should probably put it this way instead:<br /><br />On the one hand, I know many in my generation who likewise don't really like South Park, what we've watched is mostly meh if not worse like unpalatable, and so on.<br /><br />On the other hand, I think there is something to the generational thing. It's not unreasonable. I think to some degree we can't help but be influenced by things in our generation. So maybe despite my protestations to the contrary I am actually influenced by South Park at a more subconscious level or something. Like I do find <i>some</i> of their stuff amusing, even if I don't like most the rest of their stuff, but even the few things I find amusing might still be off-putting to earlier generations. So I can't completely rule out that there's something to the generational thing. Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-35788394190989382242018-06-11T09:20:48.019-04:002018-06-11T09:20:48.019-04:00The apostles Paul and Peter fought, but in the end...<i>The apostles Paul and Peter fought, but in the end it proved beneficial to the church (e.g. we might not have Galatians without it). Maybe that's a more optimistic way to look at things? </i><br /><br />That's good and helpful way to look at it. Thanks for your comments and encouragement!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-20937123833906748632018-06-11T09:18:23.883-04:002018-06-11T09:18:23.883-04:00Thanks for the other comment about Southpark and F...Thanks for the other comment about Southpark and Family Guy, etc.<br /><br />If it is not a generational thing, I wonder what it is.<br /><br />why some people like that style of humor.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-57446729132989367702018-06-11T09:16:27.029-04:002018-06-11T09:16:27.029-04:00The apostles Paul and Peter fought, but in the end...The apostles Paul and Peter fought, but in the end it proved beneficial to the church (e.g. we might not have Galatians without it). Maybe that's a more optimistic way to look at things? <br /><br />In any case, no shame in sitting this one out. You've done a lot of excellent work for the Lord. Far more than someone like me could ever do. Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-46249433557188426842018-06-11T09:14:51.910-04:002018-06-11T09:14:51.910-04:00I cannot avoid it completely, because the other co...I cannot avoid it completely, because the other content of both Triablogue (of the few articles that I am able to grasp and read with understanding. Most of Steve's stuff is over my head. I only read ones that I can grasp from the beginning or that I am interested in.) and Dr. White's material and Dr. Wood's material is very good, IMO. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-71263183562064782352018-06-11T09:10:40.206-04:002018-06-11T09:10:40.206-04:00I did not mean "force" literally.
But...I did not mean "force" literally. <br /><br />But, yeah, I am depressed over all the fighting and energy spent on this stuff; and my lack of being able to digest it all with other stuff in life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-23493842635710835882018-06-11T09:08:53.449-04:002018-06-11T09:08:53.449-04:00By the way, I have grown up on South Park, Family ...By the way, I have grown up on South Park, Family Guy, and the like. But I've never really liked their humor either. So at least in my case I don't think I have some generational or subcultural blindspot or whatever due to the rest of my generation or subcultural having grown up on such fare.Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-69706539118694218622018-06-11T09:06:09.189-04:002018-06-11T09:06:09.189-04:00Ken Temple
"You forced me to watch it again....Ken Temple<br /><br />"You forced me to watch it again. (and force me to spend too much of my time on this stuff; I wanted to just let it all go at this point; because of time and emotional energy spent over being depressed over all the fighting that Christians are doing with each other on these apologetic blogs, etc. )"<br /><br />Easy there, pardner. No one "forced" you to do anything. It's not like anyone has a gun to your head. If all this is truly making you feel like you're emotionally spent and depressed, then might I kindly suggest taking time away from it all? After all, I'm sure White is more than capable of defending himself on his criticisms without the need of others to do so, especially if it's causing them to feel this way.Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-73520864185799654692018-06-11T08:58:08.638-04:002018-06-11T08:58:08.638-04:00You forced me to watch it again. (and force me to...You forced me to watch it again. (and force me to spend too much of my time on this stuff; I wanted to just let it all go at this point; because of time and emotional energy spent over being depressed over all the fighting that Christians are doing with each other on these apologetic blogs, etc. ) <br /><br />I confess I only watched a few seconds of it before, at that point; and got disgusted and turned it off when I heard the music. I thought it was 3 men with one woman being depicted. Ok, there are only 2 men. I assumed they continued from the earlier segment of the 3 men with the woman in the burka / chador. The hands of the person in the Burka show that it seems to me that is not Jon McCray. But you right in that there are only 2 men depicted - adults; and yes, they are depicting the absurdity of the Hadith in itself.<br /><br />Well, the music may be techno or whatever, and I guess I reacted emotionally to the whole enactment of it as offensive. I interpreted it as "sexy" or disco type, etc. - I don't like disco or techno music. I like more in the way of classic rock - 60s and 70s rock style type. The music was irritating to me as the scene, and I saw a few seconds of it and turned it off, thinking ok, I got the point. <br /><br />As Steve mentioned with analyzing David Wood's style (and personality) from the beginning, he pointed out that our current culture has grown up with TV shows like Southpark, Family Guy and the movie "World Police" type humor. <br />When my 2 boys grew up, when they got into the older teenage years, they liked that stuff and we had disagreements over watching it - because I did not approve. <br /><br /> That is what Wood's videos remind me of.<br /><br />As I slow down and watch more of them and also read all the interactions and reactions to the "Islamicize Me" video series; I am also realizing the point of the humor, but, as I wrote somewhere before in all this, just quoting those Hadith passages as is, with some comments that are reasonable and logical, would be enough to show them / expose them for the ridiculous nature that they are. (especially for modern world / society, etc. - some of them do have context in Arabian desert life in the 6th and 7th Centuries and the realities of dealing with that life in the desert.)<br /><br />I guess I just don't really like Southpark or Family Guy type humor. (explanation: When my 2 boys got old enough and independent to start challenging me on things (why I did not want them watching stuff like that) (around ages 15-18 and ongoing into their 20s (now 28 and 25); they forced me to watch one or two episodes, because I could not logically answer all the questions that they had for "why" and "why not", etc. - So I watched one or two in order to relate to them and not just be rigid; and I don't like that style at all; so I guess it is a matter of me being an older generation. I guess I share that with Dr. White. <br /><br />It bugs me that all this stuff is bugging me and taking so much time; yet I keep coming back to it. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-89943438939484407532018-06-11T08:28:22.132-04:002018-06-11T08:28:22.132-04:00I guess it depends what kind of Islam and what kin...I guess it depends what kind of Islam and what kind of atheism we're talking about. For example, if it's Islam that's sympathetic with militant Muslims to a popular level libertarian atheism, which I suspect would be the most likely path for most who do leave Islam for atheism, then I would think that'd be an improvement inasmuch as popular level libertarian atheism at least isn't typically sympathetic to militant Muslims and essentially just want to be left alone. <br /><br />However, even if it's something radical like militant Islam to militant atheism, then I would still think that's at least arguably an improvement inasmuch as militant atheists don't typically murder innocent men, women, and/or children (short of being a serial killer, I guess) and thanks to their beliefs about marriage and kids they typically don't have many kids like militant Muslims do.Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-26782160998165414182018-06-11T08:12:27.537-04:002018-06-11T08:12:27.537-04:00At most, I think the music might sound "forbi...At most, I think the music might sound "forbidden", like something taboo, but I for one don't hear "sexy".Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-80759490302170035222018-06-11T08:10:37.487-04:002018-06-11T08:10:37.487-04:00Yes, but how? That's my question. It's e...Yes, but how? That's my question. It's easy enough for someone to throw out charges that "that offends me" or "that crosses the line" but I'm asking for what Biblical evidence there is that any line has been crossed.<br /><br />Accusing someone of crossing some line ought, in the very least, be traceable back to an actual sin. So I'm asking those who have a problem with it just to let me know why exactly you have a problem. Is there any actual sin that you can trace this to, or is it just something that makes you uncomfortable? Or do you equate "this makes me uncomfortable" with "this must be a sin"?<br /><br />I'll have more to say on this later, but I have to run for the moment. As always, I appreciate talking with you Ken, but just so everyone knows, my questions are for everyone who was offended, not just you :-)Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-31438027703430493252018-06-11T08:10:01.548-04:002018-06-11T08:10:01.548-04:00"It was not breastfeeding per say (normally w..."It was not breastfeeding per say (normally with an infant)"<br /><br />Of course, apart from the ethics of it, the point of Islamicize Me #19 <i>assumes</i> "breastfeeding" is indeed "normally with an infant". Otherwise, it wouldn't be absurd! Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-64573083411920342082018-06-11T08:08:05.334-04:002018-06-11T08:08:05.334-04:00Ken Temple
"It was not breastfeeding per sa...Ken Temple <br /><br />"It was not breastfeeding per say (normally with an infant); rather it was depiction of breastfeeding by 3 adult men with one woman, and the added "sexy music" that seems to cross the line."<br /><br />Without weighing in on the ethics, but just to get the facts right:<br /><br />The video in question is <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc7YJ2xUuNo" rel="nofollow">Islamicize Me #19</a>. The scene in question starts at around 5 minutes.<br /><br />I only saw three people total (not "3 adult men with one woman"). I saw two men (i.e. Wood and Malone) and a third person who was most likely McCray dressed in a burka meant to represent a woman. No actual women were in the video as far as I can tell.<br /><br />I'm no musician or anything like that, but it sounds more like techno music to me, not "sexy music". Maybe some kind of a Arabic techno music? I don't know, but in any case I certainly did not take it to be "sexy music" at all. Moreover, I don't even know if sexy music was the intent of the filmmakers (i.e. Wood, Malone, McCray), was it? Epistle of Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07779184015407034200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-17619863438420036122018-06-11T06:40:06.608-04:002018-06-11T06:40:06.608-04:00It was not breastfeeding per say (normally with an...It was not breastfeeding per say (normally with an infant); rather it was depiction of breastfeeding by 3 adult men with one woman, and the added "sexy music" that seems to cross the line.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com