tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post2567637578014358184..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Keller in the dockRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-56263532977293436012011-05-13T23:33:22.037-04:002011-05-13T23:33:22.037-04:00Blogger suffered what looks to me to have been a m...Blogger suffered what looks to me to have been a major meltdown. All posts within a roughly three day period were effectec by it. They have tried to preserve as much as possible but lost a lot of stuff. I haven't blogged anything on my own blog in a while but when I tried posting a few things got a warning message that I wouldn't be able to access things for a while. Hope you don't have to reconstruct too much from scratch, Steve.Wenatchee the Hatchethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13208892745502555715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-15643172209058230782011-05-13T19:09:56.254-04:002011-05-13T19:09:56.254-04:00Blogger suffered a meltdown. Depending on what'...Blogger suffered a meltdown. Depending on what's restored (or not), I may try repost or reconstruct what I can of the missing posts and comments.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-74790884628583970672011-05-13T17:26:45.277-04:002011-05-13T17:26:45.277-04:00What happened to all the previous comments here an...What happened to all the previous comments here and the post on Male Headship that has disappeared? Have feminists taken the helm?!Henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06242793531954844979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-64134608560460389112011-05-11T22:26:52.810-04:002011-05-11T22:26:52.810-04:00TUAD:
Pepin is better but I still want a better a...TUAD:<br /><br />Pepin is better but I still want a better analysis. Remember, I’m stridently opposed to the Tim Keller personality cult. On the other hand, Keller deserves an accurate critique, even if that critique is provocative. <br /><br />1.) Saying you’re for “social justice” is like saying you’re for “traditional values” or “right reason” or “human rights.” Different people use jargon in different ways. Let Keller define the term however he wants. Then go from there. Keller is slippery, of course, so this may be an annoying chore.<br /><br />2.) I don’t think it is fair to compare Keller with some revolutionary atheist because of his politics. He’s not Che Guevara, for crying out loud. At most he’s a squishly left-wing neoevangelical.<br /><br />3.) Pepin claims Keller is Emergent. Is that fair? Keller was doing his thing for years before those guys showed up. <br /><br />4.) I agree with Pepin that Keller has a Guilty White Boy complex. I would analyze the issue differently from him because I think it is central to his thinking. For one thing, the word “racism” is an ad hominem term used almost exclusively to attack whites, whether they deserve it or not. It is not a Biblical category. <br /><br />5.) The Bible really DOES call on the state to protect the poor and restrain corrosive capitalism. However, Keller makes a parody of that with his lousy arguments. For example, when Keller talks “Justice and Mercy,” IMHO he is using those words in an emotive sense without clear meaning. This is more manipulation of White Guilt. He does the poor no favors by doing this. I find it intellectually dishonest.<br /><br />Hope this helps.Randall van der Sterrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08618509337299843429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-25412857226352318272011-05-11T19:28:30.489-04:002011-05-11T19:28:30.489-04:00Cont. “But the Bayly's would go further and sa...Cont. “But the Bayly's would go further and say gender roles should not be artificially limited to marriage and church, but should apply more widely in society.”<br /><br />I agree. But politically speaking, that’s a lost cause for the foreseeable future. So we need to focus on the church, where we retain more control. <br /><br />“More conservative complementarians (I would imagine this includes the Bayly's) would take 1Cor14:33-36 at face value rather than pursuing the route of Grudem and Carson…to avoid saying women should be more broadly silent in church.”<br /><br />i) The problem with the so-called “face value” reading is that it seems to directly contradict 11:2-16.<br /><br />ii) Moreover, 1 Cor 11 is more fundamental to the complementarian position than 1 Cor 14:33-36 inasmuch as 1 Cor 11 lays down the creation-order principle, which was what grounds the complementarian position (in a creational ordinance). <br /><br />iii) Since 1 Cor wasn’t written to 21C Christians, there are bound to be some vagaries at this distance. It’s an educated guess what he had in mind. But in any event, we need an interpretation that’s mutually consistent with 1 Cor 11 and 1 Cor 14 alike. Ciampa/Rosner, in their recent commentary, sift the options.<br /><br />“The Bayly's would also dare to entertain the possibility that head coverings are not a culturally bound expression of submission…”<br /><br />I don’t think that discussion should be taken and some conservative presbyterian denominations here in Scotland (FPCS, FCC) and a few others. off the table.<br /><br />“I believe RC Sproul is of this view…”<br /><br />With all due respect, he’s not a Bible scholar.<br /><br /> “…as are many Plymouth Brethren assemblies.”<br /><br />Of course, appealing to the Plymouth Brethren highlights the complexities of correlating NT church officers with modern-day counterparts. <br /><br />“And some conservative presbyterian denominations here in Scotland (FPCS, FCC) and a few others.”<br /><br />Well, since my father’s side of the family migrated from Scotland to New England in 1680, I’m quite sympathetic to your Celtic credentials. But I’ll resist the temptation to make that a probative consideration.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1855354477761727242011-05-11T19:28:30.490-04:002011-05-11T19:28:30.490-04:00HALO SAID:
“…it still gives the wrong message to ...HALO SAID:<br /><br />“…it still gives the wrong message to a watching world…”<br /><br />I’m less concerned with the message we send than whether our practice is allowed or disallowed by Scripture.<br /><br />“…indicating to most that she holds a position of authority over men in the church.”<br /><br />i) We need to take a step back and ask what kind of authority women were illegitimately wielding over men in 1 Tim 2, and/or what social position they held which enabled them to wield/abuse that authority.<br /><br />We’d then consider analogous situations in our own time and place.<br /><br />ii) I think 1 Tim 2 most likely envisions upper class women (or women of means) who hosted Christian meetings in their private homes. Upper class women were in a position to wield authority over lower class men–and abuse that authority.<br /><br />iii) In the larger context of Paul’s letter, it’s not so much that women were teaching men, but rather, that women were sponsoring heretical teachers. So perhaps Paul is speaking in shorthand here. <br /><br />“Tim Keller (and many others) appear to relegate complementarianism in the church as being no more than not holding the title 'elder', instead of applying the principles Paul gives more consistently.”<br /><br />I’m not sufficiently conversant with the details of Keller’s position or practice to comment one way or the other.<br /><br />“So you would get situations were a woman could regularly lead a mixed group in a bible study but not teach them in church.”<br /><br />Question: is it appropriate for a man to read Karen Jobes’ commentary on 1 Peter, but inappropriate for a man to hear Karen Jobes say the same thing she wrote?<br /><br />I don’t see that the mode of transmission is a principled distinction.<br /><br />“administering communion”<br /><br />i) That’s not so much a male/female issue, but a lay/clerical issue. Is the administration of the Eucharist reserved for the clergy? The NT doesn’t speak to that issue one way or the other.<br /><br />ii) Of course, in Catholic theology, this is also a male/female issue inasmuch as the priest is acting in the place of Christ. But we presumably reject that theological undercarriage.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-73599064125670587592011-05-11T16:25:07.306-04:002011-05-11T16:25:07.306-04:00Hi Randall,
What do you think of this lengthy boo...Hi Randall,<br /><br />What do you think of this lengthy book review:<br /><br /><a href="http://freedomtorch.com/blogs/15351/2814/social-justice-with-a-spiritual" rel="nofollow">Social Justice With a Spiritual Jacket</a>Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-23867442061863705562011-05-11T16:21:11.971-04:002011-05-11T16:21:11.971-04:00TUAD:
I'm no Keller fan, as I explained at le...TUAD:<br /><br />I'm no Keller fan, as I explained at length in a previous thread. Yet the "Social Justice" article is poor. Really, really poor.<br /><br />The author is throwing around comparisons everyone from Marx to Father Coughlin. Next he complains that Keller translates his own Greek. Then he goes off about the Soviet Constitution!<br /><br />Sure, Keller and social justice are bad news. Yet I submit he deserves a much more careful analysis than this.Randall van der Sterrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08618509337299843429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-18219293324638060462011-05-11T14:07:41.342-04:002011-05-11T14:07:41.342-04:00I definitely agree that a mere title (e.g deacon o...I definitely agree that a mere title (e.g deacon or elder) is less important than what a woman is functionally doing. <br /><br />But words (and therefore titles) also carry meanings and so even if a woman is called a 'pastor' but does not violate the authority/submission principles it still gives the wrong message to a watching world - indicating to most that she holds a position of authority over men in the church. <br /><br />So function is of primary importance, but titles convey messages to onlookers too.<br /><br />I think there are a several issues in the whole women in ministry debate:<br /><br />1) Tim Keller (and many others) appear to relegate complementarianism in the church as being no more than not holding the title 'elder', instead of applying the principles Paul gives more consistently. So you would get situations were a woman could regularly lead a mixed group in a bible study but not teach them in church.<br /><br />2) I am not an expert on the Bayly Blog, but I think they (rightly in my opinion) hold a more consistent complementarian view. In that they would see the principles of authority/submission applied more consistently e.g to worship leader, administering communion, leading a mixed small group etc.. rather than just to the office of elder. Many professing complementarians would still be on board here. But the Bayly's would go further and say gender roles should not be artificially limited to marriage and church, but should apply more widely in society. Think John Knox. In fact the 1st chapter of RBMW by John Piper is quite suggestive in this direction. <br /><br />3) More conservative complementarians (I would imagine this includes the Bayly's) would take 1Cor14:33-36 at face value rather than pursuing the route of Grudem and Carson (and most of mainstream complementarianism) who attempt to get us out of there. There has been some convincing (in my mind) pushback against the Grudem/Carson view (e.g. Carl Laney of CBMW, Michael Marlowe of bibleresearcher and James Greenbury in JETS). More conservative complementarians feel the 'judging prophecy' route engages in some implausible exegesis to avoid saying women should be more broadly silent in church.<br /><br />4) The Bayly's would also dare to entertain the possibility that head coverings are not a culturally bound expression of submission (contra Schreiner in RBMW), and that women wearing them in church today should be at least be at the table. I believe RC Sproul is of this view as are many Plymouth Brethren assemblies, and some conservative presbyterian denominations here in Scotland (FPCS, FCC) and a few others. <br /><br />Points 3) and 4) would make the Bayly's quite unpopular with many mainstream complementarians I would imagine.Henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06242793531954844979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-31784752173405506282011-05-11T13:22:55.692-04:002011-05-11T13:22:55.692-04:00In re-reading the link that C. Andiron provided I ...In re-reading the link that C. Andiron provided I found that it's a small excerpt from a much more in-depth examination of Keller's liberalism.<br /><br />The more comprehensive critique is <a href="http://freedomtorch.com/blogs/3/2762/tim-keller-and-social-justice" rel="nofollow">Tim Keller and Social Justice</a> and it has 73 comments so far.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-81485211521077961352011-05-11T12:08:29.173-04:002011-05-11T12:08:29.173-04:00He's also moving slowly into socialism:
http:...He's also moving slowly into socialism:<br /><br />http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-times/article.php?articleid=7094<br /><br />This cannot be divorced from theology.C. Andironhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04850876481256430215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-29282666000361633042011-05-11T12:06:03.052-04:002011-05-11T12:06:03.052-04:00Wow! What a comprehensive examination.
It's ...Wow! What a comprehensive examination.<br /><br />It's far more than "Keller in the dock." This post lists an expansive framework from which to think about the Women's Ordination issue.<br /><br />Thanks for your thoughts, Steve.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.com