tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post2520193382613725392..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: DeceptionRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-19724256759367288742015-04-02T23:24:59.882-04:002015-04-02T23:24:59.882-04:00Hi Peter, thanks for the interaction. I don't...Hi Peter, thanks for the interaction. I don't think it's at all clear from the text of Jas. 2:25 that Rahab's *lie* is being commended, condoned, or even or cited as the reason for her "justification", rather the text reports the bare fact that "she received the messengers and sent them out by another way" without comment on the method. As you well know, the Bible often reports facts and events without speaking to the morality or immorality surrounding the facts or events.<br /><br />Personally in context I think James is probably referring to the Jewish spies, because by identifying herself with God's covenant people, and putting her own life at risk on their behalf, she was "justified" (in the sense James uses the term) by this outworking of her newborn faith in the God of Israel.<br /><br />Blessings.<br /><br />CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03231394164372721485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-19534507186059588492015-04-02T09:57:02.710-04:002015-04-02T09:57:02.710-04:00Thanks for sending that on, CR! The main problem ...Thanks for sending that on, CR! The main problem I have with the post you linked is that I do not think it adequately addresses the issue of Rahab. James specifically says she was justified "when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way". BTW, given the story in Joshua, the "them" seems to me to be referring to the pursuers rather than the spies from Israel, but regardless the key word is the verb "sent." And how did Rahab send them "out by another way"? By lying: "True, the men came to me, but I did not know where they were from. And when the gate was about to be closed at dark, the men went out. I do not know where the men went. Pursue them quickly, for you will overtake them."<br /><br />The *lie* is what sent them a different way than where the spies were, and it is *that lie* that James says indicates Rahab's justification, and I don't think that was adequately dealt with by the Cripplegate site.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-42906921200984451722015-04-02T00:19:59.451-04:002015-04-02T00:19:59.451-04:00You're permitted to be mistaken now and then, ...You're permitted to be mistaken now and then, so long as you don't exceed your quota. But if you disagree with Tblog too often, brace yourself for freak accidents. A preview of eschatological judgment! :-)stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-81650481146604972132015-04-01T23:21:08.462-04:002015-04-01T23:21:08.462-04:00I usually think T-blog is spot on, but cast a diss...I usually think T-blog is spot on, but cast a dissenting vote here. I side with the <a href="http://thecripplegate.com/is-it-ever-ok-to-lie/" rel="nofollow">Cripplegate boys</a> on this one.CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03231394164372721485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-56453892364549663042015-04-01T22:15:04.574-04:002015-04-01T22:15:04.574-04:00In large part, God can be trusted to keep his prom...In large part, God can be trusted to keep his promises because God has the unilateral ability to ensure their realization. Nothing and no one has the power to prevent him from doing what he said he'd do.<br /><br />In addition, God is never in a position where he must choose between protecting the innocent and telling the truth. <br /><br />The same, however, can't be said for feeble creatures in a fallen world. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-70887910848119446292015-04-01T20:38:28.931-04:002015-04-01T20:38:28.931-04:00Hello Ben,
Thank you for the clarification! Again...Hello Ben,<br />Thank you for the clarification! Again, Steve said much of what I would have said already. I will add based on your last comment two things. 1) In the heat of the moment is not when you should be figuring out what your response should be, which is why thinking about these scenarios is a good thing to do (i.e., you figure out what your default mode would be so that it becomes your immediate reaction in a crisis). 2) It's good to have a habit of avoiding lying in general. As I said in the original post, I don't think that these types of scenarios come up very frequently at all. The vast majority of the time there is no moral reason to lie in a situation. I'm referring to special circumstance that I pray neither you nor I will ever have to face.Peter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-40678447034456316612015-04-01T16:05:04.818-04:002015-04-01T16:05:04.818-04:00You're making me think.
If I ever encounter a...You're making me think.<br /><br />If I ever encounter a situation like that I hope I have time to think it through. I'd have a hard time figuring it out on the spot. My natural inclination would be to do whatever was easier for me. And my habit it to avoid ever lying.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05256949774839675735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-73826885803135482882015-04-01T15:40:23.260-04:002015-04-01T15:40:23.260-04:00Leveling with the wrong people can be a betrayal o...Leveling with the wrong people can be a betrayal of trust if we have a duty to protect some people from other people who would do them harm. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-88483756773557306152015-04-01T15:30:55.928-04:002015-04-01T15:30:55.928-04:00If Jews thought I'd rat them out to the Nazis,...If Jews thought I'd rat them out to the Nazis, they wouldn't trust me. Can I be trusted to do the right thing in that situation? That's part of trustworthiness. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-15723263793291816062015-04-01T15:11:40.661-04:002015-04-01T15:11:40.661-04:00> There are many things that God is unable to d...> There are many things that God is unable to do that humans can do–or experience.<br /><br />I recognize that. <br /><br />In Titus 1:2 Paul's using the fact that God never lies to show his trustworthiness. He promised it and he never lies so we know it will come true. I've gotten from that that if you want to be completely trustworthy you can't ever lie. If you lie under any circumstance you introduce some doubt. I know I'm never going to meet that standard, but I had that as the goal to strive for.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05256949774839675735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-4798667876156575772015-04-01T14:54:16.134-04:002015-04-01T14:54:16.134-04:00There are many things that God is unable to do tha...There are many things that God is unable to do that humans can do–or experience. I can be afraid–God can't. I can enjoy chocolate ice cream–God can't. What God can or can't do is not ipso facto the standard of what humans can or can't do (or should do). In some important respects, God and human creatures are radically different. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-55466968540784228842015-04-01T14:49:59.894-04:002015-04-01T14:49:59.894-04:00The "it" was referring to what you'd...The "it" was referring to what you'd say to the nazi.<br /><br />> So clearly, lying to the Nazis, while breaking the command not to lie, is actually obeying the command to love our neighbor as ourselves<br /><br />You didn't call anything God did a lie. You said you thought lying would be the moral thing to do in that situation. I'm trying to understand how lying can be moral and yet something God is unable to do. Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05256949774839675735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-72159587381696171302015-04-01T14:28:54.025-04:002015-04-01T14:28:54.025-04:00In fact, Peter has a special dial on his watch to ...In fact, Peter has a special dial on his watch to adjust the output of awesomeness in case it becomes overwhelming to bystanders. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-89549957908492722572015-04-01T13:56:41.991-04:002015-04-01T13:56:41.991-04:00Peter habitually out-awesomes me. Peter habitually out-awesomes me. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-50001099217094030762015-04-01T13:05:04.709-04:002015-04-01T13:05:04.709-04:00Ben said:
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But you did call it a lie.
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Can ...Ben said:<br />---<br />But you did call it a lie.<br />---<br /><br />Can you clarify what "it" refers to in your sentence, Ben? Because I don't recall anything God doing being called a lie, and having just re-read my post, confirmed my recollection. So I have no idea what you're addressing.<br /><br />For the record, with my assumptions of what you probably meant, I would have answered just about the same way Steve did, but with fewer Roman numerals and more awesomeness. :-DPeter Pikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792036365040378473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-55772361089183464492015-04-01T12:01:30.851-04:002015-04-01T12:01:30.851-04:00A quick answer:
i) If I were Jesus, I wouldn'...A quick answer:<br /><br />i) If I were Jesus, I wouldn't box myself into that predicament in the first place. If I can predestine history, I won't put myself in a bind. <br /><br />But since I'm not God or God Incarnate, I must play the hand I was dealt. I'm not the dealer. I didn't shuffle the deck. <br /><br />ii) Likewise, if I had the miraculous powers of Jesus, there'd always be alternatives to lying since I'd be able to supernaturally override the circumstances. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-53788624268585832802015-04-01T11:51:54.877-04:002015-04-01T11:51:54.877-04:00Speaking for myself, I've discussed this issue...Speaking for myself, I've discussed this issue in detail:<br /><br />http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2013/05/who-are-you-going-to-believe-me-or-your.html<br /><br />http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2013/04/lies-for-lives.html<br /><br />http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2013/05/lying-and-dying.htmlstevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-6423353711941279072015-04-01T08:59:43.646-04:002015-04-01T08:59:43.646-04:00How do you reconcile that with Titus 1:2? How can ...How do you reconcile that with Titus 1:2? How can it be acceptable for us to lie in a situation when Jesus would not have been able to lie in that same situation?<br /><br />I've heard others explain it by saying the coercive nature of the situation made it not truly a lie. But you did call it a lie.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05256949774839675735noreply@blogger.com