tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post179683487878202455..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Dwarves in the stableRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-90303133407204322632017-08-31T10:07:33.584-04:002017-08-31T10:07:33.584-04:00"If they are indeed formal heretics, they los..."If they are indeed formal heretics, they lost their offices ipso facto as St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Antoninus and others teach."<br /><br />That's another circular appeal. What makes them saints? You depend on the Magisterium, while you turn around and use that to debunk popes. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-60523661185646498582017-08-31T08:20:58.939-04:002017-08-31T08:20:58.939-04:00"Funny how sedevacatists give Pius XII a pass..."Funny how sedevacatists give Pius XII a pass even though he was the pope who began to introduce modernism into Catholicism by opening the door to human evolution ("Humani Generis") and the historical-critical method ("Divino Afflante Spiritu")."<br /><br />Pope Pius XII did not teach that evolution is true, he merely taught that it is permissible for Catholics to believe in theistic evolution and investigate this topic lawfully. In the very same encyclical (Humani Generis) he also reprimended thos who already claim that evolution is a proven fact. In general I agree that Pius XII made liberal changes in some areas, but nothing that would warrant suspecting him of formal heresy.<br /><br />"That's circular inasmuch as you depend on the Magisterium to vet "Church-approved private revelations", which you then use to debunk popes. <br /><br />I do not use private revelation to debunk Popes, I point out their statements which are objectively heretical according to my judgment. If they are indeed formal heretics, they lost their offices ipso facto as St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Antoninus and others teach. A non-Catholic cannot in be a Pope and cannot excercise any authority in the Catholic Church. Private revelations merely confirm that the current crisis in the Church was indeed coming - we were warned.<br /><br />"An exercise in misdirection. Those examples don't make a spurious text authentic."<br /><br />You misunderstood my point. I was not defending John 5:2-4 that way, rather I pointed out that there are other examples of objects with supernatural powers which heal in Scripture like bones of Elisha or St. Paul's handkerchiefs, which indicate that miraculous powers in places like Lourdes are possible.Arvingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03575690683878059246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-51920509964070374482017-08-30T21:23:52.848-04:002017-08-30T21:23:52.848-04:00"Arvinger That is correct, which is why consi..."Arvinger That is correct, which is why consistent Traditional Catholics recognize that the Chair of Peter is most likely vacant from 1958"<br /><br />Funny how sedevacatists give Pius XII a pass even though he was the pope who began to introduce modernism into Catholicism by opening the door to human evolution ("Humani Generis") and the historical-critical method ("Divino Afflante Spiritu"). <br /><br />"This has solid support in Church-approved private revelations and in teaching of many Saints and Doctors of the Church (St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Antoninus, St. Francis de Sales) that a formal heretic loses office in the Church ipso facto when falling into formal heresy."<br /><br />That's circular inasmuch as you depend on the Magisterium to vet "Church-approved private revelations", which you then use to debunk popes. "First of all, there are other examples of objects used for healing in Scripture (2 Kings 13:21, Acts 19:12)."<br /><br />An exercise in misdirection. Those examples don't make a spurious text authentic.<br /><br />"Furthermore, that is not an argument against documented miracles in the history of the Catholic Church, such as the Miracle of the Sun in Fatima. I always find it funny how Protestants correctly defend miracles described in Scripture but than dismiss documented Catholic miracles in a manner similar to secular naturalists."<br /><br />i) There are documented miracles in Protestant circles.<br /><br />ii) As I've explained on more than one occasion, I have no antecedent objection to Catholic miracles. For instance:<br /><br />http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2014/05/does-lourdes-undercut-resurrection.html<br /><br />iii) I analyzed the "miracle of the sun" ten years ago:<br /><br />http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2007/01/miracle-of-sun.htmlstevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-30339429601271347552017-08-30T09:48:57.674-04:002017-08-30T09:48:57.674-04:00"I suppose that means there is a visible and ..."I suppose that means there is a visible and invisible Catholic Church, a true true church and a false true church."<br /><br />Not at all. As Bishop des Lauriers's Cassiciacum Thesis explains, the current hierarchy has not yet been deposed, therefore they remain in posession of their Episcopal Sees materially, thus providing material continuity of the Apostolic Succession. However, they lack any formal authority on account of their heresy which bars them from excercising authority in any office. Formal/material distinction is crucial here.<br />http://mostholytrinityseminary.org/Explanation%20of%20the%20Thesis.pdf<br /><br />"And how do these TradCaths come to the conclusion that the current hierarchy is non-Catholic? By their own private judgment. Their own private interpretation."<br /><br />That is correct, which is I emphasize that we need Church declaration to know it for sure. For now, due to very significant doubts about the legitimacy of V2 Popes (papa dubius, nullus papa principle upheld by many theologians such as De Groot and Cardinal Cajetan) and the hierarchy, Traditional Catholics can withdraw obediance to the putative hierarchy (much like Athanasius did against Arians before they were formally deposed), but a judgment on the hierarchy must be withheld until the Church makes a declaration.Arvingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03575690683878059246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-19943869876055561572017-08-30T09:36:08.483-04:002017-08-30T09:36:08.483-04:00"That is correct, which is why consistent Tra..."That is correct, which is why consistent Traditional Catholics recognize that the Chair of Peter is most likely vacant from 1958 and current hierarchy is likewise most likely non-Catholic (although Church declaration would be necessary to know that with absolute certainty). This has solid support in Church-approved private revelations and in teaching of many Saints and Doctors of the Church (St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Antoninus, St. Francis de Sales) that a formal heretic loses office in the Church ipso facto when falling into formal heresy."<br /><br />I suppose that means there is a visible and invisible Catholic Church, a true true church and a false true church. <br /><br />And how do these TradCaths come to the conclusion that the current hierarchy is non-Catholic? By their own private judgment. Their own private interpretation.<br /><br /><br />Ben Carmackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689868508463357958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-68665366682666993462017-08-30T08:35:08.990-04:002017-08-30T08:35:08.990-04:00"I'm suggesting it's incoherent to be..."I'm suggesting it's incoherent to be Catholic, but be insubordinate to the hierarchy. The logical alternative is to ditch Catholicism."<br /><br />That is correct, which is why consistent Traditional Catholics recognize that the Chair of Peter is most likely vacant from 1958 and current hierarchy is likewise most likely non-Catholic (although Church declaration would be necessary to know that with absolute certainty). This has solid support in Church-approved private revelations and in teaching of many Saints and Doctors of the Church (St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Antoninus, St. Francis de Sales) that a formal heretic loses office in the Church ipso facto when falling into formal heresy. <br /><br />"It sounds like fantasy or superstition because you're quoting a scribal interpolation."<br /><br />First of all, there are other examples of objects used for healing in Scripture (2 Kings 13:21, Acts 19:12). Furthermore, that is not an argument against documented miracles in the history of the Catholic Church, such as the Miracle of the Sun in Fatima. I always find it funny how Protestants correctly defend miracles described in Scripture but than dismiss documented Catholic miracles in a manner similar to secular naturalists. Arvingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03575690683878059246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-28085434799634575142017-08-30T07:59:14.580-04:002017-08-30T07:59:14.580-04:00Never trust a Roman Catholic bishop. They are all ...Never trust a Roman Catholic bishop. They are all erring one way or another. John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-5331515660984315522017-08-29T15:22:15.615-04:002017-08-29T15:22:15.615-04:00The US Catholic bishops are heretics by my yardsti...The US Catholic bishops are heretics by my yardstick, and they are heretics by the yardstick of anti-modernist popes, but they aren't heretics and apostates by the yardstick of Vatican II. And there's been a modernist trajectory in the papacy, beginning with Pius XII. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-22663750469054766722017-08-29T09:21:30.964-04:002017-08-29T09:21:30.964-04:00I'm suggesting it's incoherent to be Catho...I'm suggesting it's incoherent to be Catholic, but be insubordinate to the hierarchy. The logical alternative is to ditch Catholicism. stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-62183702131010103952017-08-29T06:00:33.258-04:002017-08-29T06:00:33.258-04:00Steve just out of curiosity, are you suggesting th...Steve just out of curiosity, are you suggesting that the US Catholic Bishops are not heretics and apostates and that you believe that catholics should trust them? Vincenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17686738325565738419noreply@blogger.com