tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post178953833300297893..comments2024-03-14T14:41:17.663-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Prince CaspianRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-4345147312961542932008-05-28T10:50:00.000-04:002008-05-28T10:50:00.000-04:00He was a man of books and ideas rather than people...<I>He was a man of books and ideas rather than people and places.</I><BR/><BR/>His fiction is incredibly artificial. You can always map any situation in his fiction to passages in his non fiction (orual/psyche -> 4 loves, mark studdock -> the inner ring, etc.). FWIW I think he's a heretic as well.thnuhthnuhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07825488332154700881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-45504141797312508802008-05-27T16:28:00.000-04:002008-05-27T16:28:00.000-04:00Steve: "There are Christians who get their creed ...<B>Steve</B>: <I>"There are Christians who get their creed straight from C. S. Lewis. Lewis is their Bible. And not just his expository writing. But the fiction. The fantasy novels. They quote this stuff as if it’s divine revelation. There is only one God, and Lewis is his prophet. <BR/><BR/><BR/>They’re so immersed in this parallel universe that it no longer occurs to them that none of this is real."</I><BR/><BR/>Yup. Steve is right. There are Christian C.S. Lewis fans who are the equivalent to Trekkies going to Star Trek Conventions.<BR/><BR/>I have encountered them on several blogs. And I'm a C.S. Lewis fan myself! I can't honestly say they idolize C.S. Lewis, but they really do adore C.S. Lewis.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-69271434872235209522008-05-27T12:26:00.000-04:002008-05-27T12:26:00.000-04:00Prince Caspian is worth seeing on the big screen. ...Prince Caspian is worth seeing on the big screen. The "romance" is a very subdued attraction, at best. The theme is Thomasian doubt versus sightless faith, displayed in martial terms, and the quality is high.<BR/><BR/>One of the important elements of the movie is that the Narnians don't have a realistic chance against the Telemar men. <BR/><BR/>Definitely worth a look in theater.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00851335695807313040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-16576219556170048252008-05-25T22:55:00.000-04:002008-05-25T22:55:00.000-04:00Dominic Bnonn Tennant said... Ah, my wife has just...Dominic Bnonn Tennant said... <BR/>Ah, my wife has just pointed out to me that, in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, Edmund grew up to a ripe old age, during which time he learned to fight very, very well (it's a thing with royalty; they get great martial training). In Prince Caspian (apparently; I haven't read it for half my lifetime), it is explicitly stated that these skills begin to return. So presumably Edmund would have been more than a match for the average soldier, all other things being equal.<BR/><BR/>:)<BR/><BR/>**************<BR/><BR/>That was a point I was trying to keep silent. :-)<BR/><BR/>But, this does show that Edmund was a scrawny 16 year old (doubt he even had a hair on his chest) wearing a suite of armor made for his "ripe old age" self.<BR/><BR/>And, yes, even given his skill, which opposing soldiers would also have had (see Oakeshott), this is where the "brute man strength" comes into play. So, that his skill returned didn't mean much against an almost equally skilled military soldier who was at least 3 times as strong. Most of those men looked like the could rep 245 10 times, Edmund probably put up 105, at best, for 5 reps!Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-27394018832802380982008-05-25T22:50:00.000-04:002008-05-25T22:50:00.000-04:00Bnonn,As far as brute strength goes, watch Rob Roy...Bnonn,<BR/><BR/>As far as brute strength goes, watch Rob Roy! That's how to beat a skilled swordsman. :-)<BR/><BR/>Perhaps you, Steve, and I should settle this over a dual. But I think you'd beat us given your sword fighting expertise.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps I'd have to pull a Indina Jones (Raiders) move on you to win (swordsman scene)?<BR/><BR/>(As an aside, I am aware that some armor was light. But in narnia their suits didn't fit them as well because they were grown the last time they wore them. So we have a boy wearing a man's suit. And, this was no gothic plate. This was straight out of Richard the Lionheart! :-) )<BR/><BR/>Anyway, I thinkw e can all agree about the apologetic points made. :-)Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-84821240516852644792008-05-25T22:44:00.000-04:002008-05-25T22:44:00.000-04:00Ah, my wife has just pointed out to me that, in Th...Ah, my wife has just pointed out to me that, in <I>The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe</I>, Edmund grew up to a ripe old age, during which time he learned to fight very, very well (it's a thing with royalty; they get great martial training). In <I>Prince Caspian</I> (apparently; I haven't read it for half my lifetime), it is explicitly stated that these skills begin to return. So presumably Edmund would have been more than a match for the average soldier, <I>all other things being equal</I>.<BR/><BR/>:)Dominic Bnonn Tennanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03103838704540924679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-53458381126272571262008-05-25T22:33:00.000-04:002008-05-25T22:33:00.000-04:00Paul, I can't argue with Oakeshott, and in such a ...Paul, I can't argue with Oakeshott, and in such a situation I agree. Just to clarify, though, my point was that <I>ex hypothesi</I> it is not inconceivable for a boy to best a man in combat. But the phrase I used, "all other things being equal", was important. David would never have had a chance against Goliath because, well, Goliath was <I>huge</I>. He was by no means an average adult. He was also a great warrior.<BR/><BR/>As regards armor, you'd be surprised how light it was. A well made suit of gothic plate could weigh as little as 20 kg (45 lb; well under your 75 lb estimate). In the case of armor made for a boy rather than a man, it isn't unreasonable to think that 15 kg is a possibility (even less if you take magic into account, I suppose). Add to that the fact that plate was much better distributed on the body than modern kevlar, and the physical difficulties you mentioned don't seem so bad. Not that Edmund would necessarily be able to fight all day; but if he was fit and energetic, he could have a decent crack at it.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, a boy raised in English public schools would probably not fare terribly well against a soldier raised from childhood in the use of a weapon. It just isn't reasonable. Some kind of supernatural explanation is necessary. But, in my opinion, that is just as evident in text as on a screen. Perhaps that's just because I know more about it than the average reader though.<BR/><BR/>As regards your comments about your own martial arts experiences, I should note that I absolutely do not think that a boy who is hit hard by a man will be getting back up to win the fight. I also don't hold out much hope at all for a boy groundfighting against a man. I was assuming that the boy was trained sufficiently to take the "true place" as George Silver calls it, thus never being hit, nor taken to ground. Even that would not be easy for him, though, unless he's lanky; tall people have a great reach advantage.<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/>BnonnDominic Bnonn Tennanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03103838704540924679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-5471936329272147232008-05-25T22:10:00.000-04:002008-05-25T22:10:00.000-04:00Perhaps we should recall David vs. Goliath. This i...Perhaps we should recall David vs. Goliath. This is a true case of a small boy besting a man, and not just any man. But it certainly wasn't with a sword. Even if David were skilled, I doubt he'd have a chance against Goliath. <BR/><BR/>We should consider that soldiers in the military are all trained to fight. So it's not as if there is a highly trained kid fighting adults who have just picked up the sword. Narnia is set in a middle ages type of warfare. Speaking of those times, Oaskeshott writes that men "were trained to use the sword from the age of seven (and who had to be tough specimens to survive that age) , [the swords were] were by no means too great [of weight] to be practical." (Oakeshott, Sword in Hand, p. 13). <BR/><BR/>Also, I give more to brute strength - the kind of a *man* against a boy - then old Dominic seems to want to give. <BR/><BR/>I recall wrestling (greco roman) a girl for the varsity slot who had years of experience. For me, it was my first year. I pinned her in about 30 seconds. <BR/><BR/>I remember when I was taking MMA classes and my inst. wanted me to learn a Japanese art (besides the Mui Thai and the jit, and my wrestling background). I attended a tournament as a white belt. I went there with some other guys from our school, besides the one-on-one tournament, we signed up for the team tournament. We made it to the finals and fought a team made of two guys and one girl. The girl was a black belt and an assistant instructor at a school. I was the one who had to fight her. I remember hitting her once in the chest (not even that hard) and she went down like a sack of potatoes. It took her a while to continue and I think it rattled her since I beat her 3 - 0. <BR/><BR/>Of course a sword equals out things a bit - just like a gun would (or a stone and sling!). So Bnonn has a point here. But I give an adult - a mean and nasty soldier - who is not as skilled with a sword, or in hand-to-hand combat as some boy is, the edge almost any time, simply do to the overwhelming strength. But I'd give more of an edge to a skilled boy fighting someone wearing no armor. All the arteries are exposed. <BR/><BR/>Edmund's arms are probably about 8 inches around. And his legs! I think I've seen bigger legs on a chair. Given that the kids were dressed in knights armor, which weighed probably 75 pounds for a whole suit, and Edmund wore it for hours at a time, it seems unlikely he was physically prepared for this kind of fighting. <BR/><BR/>So, maybe Steve should have made corrections, but necessarily the ones Bnonn suggested! <BR/><BR/>One other thing that we're not taking into account. It seems that simply fighting on the "right side" gives the weaker boy (in these kinds of tales) a massive reserve of strength to pull from. Dominic mentioned apologetics. We could have another similarity here. Often times, those who are the right side theologically, philosophically, apologetically, just make the better arguments than their more highly trained opponents. In cases like these, boys best men frequently.Errorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10615233201833238198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-13540104942769395502008-05-25T19:26:00.000-04:002008-05-25T19:26:00.000-04:00Fair enough. You do have to wonder how some charac...Fair enough. You do have to wonder how some characters learn to fight. Do they just magically pick it up?Dominic Bnonn Tennanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03103838704540924679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1400452603324256912008-05-25T19:23:00.000-04:002008-05-25T19:23:00.000-04:00I'll grant your point if Edmund was tutored in mix...I'll grant your point if Edmund was tutored in mixed martial arts. In that event the movie version might need to include Georges St-Pierre as his personal trainer. <BR/><BR/>Or perhaps we could put in a good word with the Director for your services! You might also help the screenwriters improve the theology of the script.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-47048983216772992552008-05-25T17:00:00.000-04:002008-05-25T17:00:00.000-04:00He doesn’t have what it takes for hand-to-hand com...<I>He doesn’t have what it takes for hand-to-hand combatant. You win or lose based on brute strength. Every boy may entertain the private fantasy of being able to win a sword fight with a towering, muscular opponent, but as soon as we actually depict these fantasies, we expose how silly they are.</I><BR/><BR/>Steve, I know this is rather inconsequential to your post as a whole, but it seemed like it needed to be corrected. As someone who teaches and studies both armed and unarmed martial arts (in the European tradition; specifically <A HREF="http://liechtenauer.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow">Liechtenauer's <I>Kunst des Fechtens</I></A>), I have to respectfully disagree with your statement. It should be quite possible to choreograph a highly realistic fight between a skilled teenage boy and a less skilled adult opponent, in which the adult gets thoroughly thrashed. In open hand combat, strength is certainly of great importance; but it is not of <I>final</I> importance unless all other things are equal. In combat with a sword, strength is decidedly less important; and indeed, against an opponent relying on "brute strength", as you put it, even a relatively inexperienced fighter who has been well grounded in the principles of biomechanics, distance, timing, and geometry would have little trouble prevailing (somewhat like apologetics, actually).<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/>BnonnDominic Bnonn Tennanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03103838704540924679noreply@blogger.com