tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post116460290157071374..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Tabula Predestinationis Bezae Contra Canerum et Pattersonum et VineumRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-54221807350957296362008-01-31T00:53:00.000-05:002008-01-31T00:53:00.000-05:00I know this was not your fundamental point, but yo...I know this was not your fundamental point, but you associated Arminianism with Thomas Aquinas. <BR/><BR/>Thomas Aquinas, however, rejected that *anything* foreseen (faith, merits, etc.) were the basis of predestination. He believed that only the gratuitous love for the elect, whom He chose because of His goodness and *nothing* in them, was the basis of election. <BR/><BR/>http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm#5<BR/><BR/>"Let us then consider the whole of the human race, as we consider the whole universe. God wills to manifest His goodness in men; in respect to those whom He predestines, by means of His mercy, as sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of His justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others."<BR/><BR/>"The Apostle says (Titus 3:5): "Not by works of justice which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us." But as He saved us, so He predestined that we should be saved. Therefore, foreknowledge of merits is not the cause or reason of predestination."<BR/><BR/>"Wherefore it cannot be said that anything begun in us can be the reason of the effect of predestination."<BR/><BR/>Arminius even knew that he had departed from Thomas Aquinas on these points. If you'd like to see a reference, I'd be glad to post it. <BR/><BR/>Thanks!Gaetanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14722914942511761947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1168541292795001922007-01-11T13:48:00.000-05:002007-01-11T13:48:00.000-05:00Bobby Grow asked:He deals with this very issue, i....Bobby Grow asked:<BR/>He deals with this very issue, i.e. continuity or discontinuity between Calvin/Beza.<BR/><BR/>Yes, and I've also read, "The Use and Abuse of a Document" which is a condensed version of CATD. In fact, much of what is here comes from them. <BR/>Have you read:<BR/><BR/>Faith, Reason, and Revelation in Theodore Beza by Jeffrey Mallinson?<BR/><BR/>David Ernst stated:<BR/><BR/>Your apparent notion that Lutheran theology springs entirely from the mind of Martin Luther is incorrect. <BR/><BR/>I presume you're Lutheran. If so, then I must ask why Lutherans that visit this blog so often cannot represent what is said on this blog correctly? Here's what I said about Luther that might have even a little relevance to your objection:<BR/><BR/>Theodore Beza, in Reformed theology, stands in relation to Calvin much the way that Melancthon stands in relation to Luther among the Lutherans. It should also go without saying that Calvin does not function for the Reformed the way that Luther functions for Lutherans.<BR/><BR/>How is this the notion that "Lutheranism springs entirely from the mind of Martin Luther?" I tend to agree with you, if your theology was truly "Lutheran" in that sense, you'd all be a bunch of high predestinarians like Luther. However, Luther's place among you is much more central, compared to the place of Zwingli, who for the Reformed was the first generation Reformer, not Calvin. Calvin was the second generation, not the first, and one of many living at that same time.His work is seminal, but the Confessions are not at all based on his work, and our theology is much more pluriform in that era.GeneMBridgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10504383610477532374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1164780804841256712006-11-29T01:13:00.000-05:002006-11-29T01:13:00.000-05:00Yes Todd, a six figure salary and you have time to...Yes Todd, a six figure salary and you have time to comb through theology blogs such as this...interesting. Actually, I haven't consigned anyone to the "scrap heap" of everlasting torture. You don't understand what you are quick to reject and condemn. Methinks debate with you would be unfruitful multiplication of words....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1164729035153098162006-11-28T10:50:00.000-05:002006-11-28T10:50:00.000-05:00No, Anonymous. I bring in well over six figures ...No, Anonymous. I bring in well over six figures a year, am in outstanding health and surrounded by very many fine people and things. Life is actually going swimmingly. However, I have empathy for much of the rest of the world who live miserable existences and who you've consigned to the scrap heap of everlasting torture after living a worldly life of suffering (as if the latter wasn't bad enough). Thus, I have a hard time understanding your theology. <BR/><BR/>- ToddAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1164697751091275072006-11-28T02:09:00.000-05:002006-11-28T02:09:00.000-05:00Apparently Todd was stood up on prom night, or mis...Apparently Todd was stood up on prom night, or missed his big opportunity to knock in the winning run for his team while in little league. Things just have not gone his way since high school either, his Mom still makes him take out the garbage. So, if there was a God, surely Todd would be happy. Because we all know that Todd deserves to be happy. It's all about Todd...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1164673160410051652006-11-27T19:19:00.000-05:002006-11-27T19:19:00.000-05:00So let me get this straight. God was sitting up o...So let me get this straight. God was sitting up on His fluffy white cloud one day and said, "Hm. I COULD create a universe where everyone was good, loving and kind, where there was no disease, no tidal waves, no hunger and where all of my creation would one day join me in Paradise to sing my praises. However, that is boring beyond comprehension. INSTEAD, I'm going to create a universe where most people are born incapable of choosing me and where I prefer they STAY wicked and evil so I can fry the skin off their bones when they die, a universe where humans are plagued with AIDS, smallpox, polio, starvation, mental and physical defects and natural disasters. In addition, I'll provide for them a cryptic book written over the course of several thousand years (instead of just making my will known in one point in time), using contradictions, questionable historical narratives and unbelievable and absurd doctrines. Their salvation hinges upon the acceptance of said book as 'Truth', even though I'm choosing who's going to believe it anyhow."<BR/><BR/><BR/>This seems rational to you? This seems like a fine deity worth worshipping? <BR/><BR/>This says more about the characters of you "Triabloggers" than anything else. This is truly a fascinating character study! So many words on this blog ... so much intellectual hooey used to wrap and sugar coat what is essentially a huge steaming pile of crap.<BR/><BR/>- ToddAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1164643822080242802006-11-27T11:10:00.000-05:002006-11-27T11:10:00.000-05:00Your apparent notion that Lutheran theology spring...Your apparent notion that Lutheran theology springs entirely from the mind of Martin Luther is incorrect. In fact, the Augsburg Confession was largely Melanchthon's work. None of LutherĀ“s writings included in the Augsburg Confession were deemed worthy of inclusion simply because Luther wrote them. For Lutherans, the confession of the Lutheran Church is Lutheran in almost exactly the same sense that the Athanasian Creed is Athanasian. Athanasius did not invent the doctrine of the Trinity and he probably did not even write the creed in the form that we have it today. But the creed is associated with his name because he was the one willing to be exiled several times for the sake of the apostolic teaching.David Ernsthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08474439439412658821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1164629805493622872006-11-27T07:16:00.000-05:002006-11-27T07:16:00.000-05:00So MacArthur is also guilty of "conflating" in a r...So MacArthur is also guilty of "conflating" in a recent post?<BR/>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/11/06/if-god-is-sovereign-is-he-responsible-for-evil/<BR/><BR/>RonRon Van Brenkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15623171051016737306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1164609530068384882006-11-27T01:38:00.000-05:002006-11-27T01:38:00.000-05:00Have you read: Christ and the Decree:Christology a...Have you read: <EM>Christ and the Decree:Christology and Predestination in Reformed Theology From Calvin to Perkins by Richard A. Muller</EM>? He deals with this very issue, i.e. continuity or discontinuity between Calvin/Beza. (I am currently reading this book)<BR/><BR/>I haven't had a chance to read your whole paper here, but I will when I have more time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com