tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post114398916776862741..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: Every Christian In The Thief On The CrossRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1144016493392431662006-04-02T18:21:00.000-04:002006-04-02T18:21:00.000-04:00Anonymous,Tom has already answered your objection,...Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>Tom has already answered your objection, though the weakness of your objection is so obvious that you shouldn't have needed anybody to explain it to you. As I mentioned in the article, the justification of the thief on the cross and his assurance of Heaven the day he died are identical to what we see over and over again with other people in scripture, in Luke's writings and elsewhere. I don't deny that we could view the thief as an exception if we had evidence leading us to that conclusion. But the evidence goes in the opposite direction. There's no reason to see the thief as an exception. He's dismissed as an exception by people who have to dismiss him in order to maintain their false view of the relevant issues.<BR/><BR/>As far as Mary is concerned, I don't see what the problem is with the common Evangelical interpretations of John 19. Apparently, Joseph was dead at the time of Jesus' crucifixion. Mary needed to be taken care of, and Jesus' siblings were in a poor spiritual state. One of Jesus' disciples, such as John, would be in a better position to give her proper care. We can learn larger principles from the passage, such as the love of Jesus and the importance of caring for relatives, but the sort of non-Evangelical principles Catholics derive from the passage are neither necessary nor demonstrably probable. The text doesn't lead us to a Catholic view of Mary, and the New Testament authors and the church fathers widely contradict the Roman Catholic view of Mary, so why should we think that John 19 is intended to lead us to something like the Catholic view of her?<BR/><BR/>After John records the relevant words of Jesus, he explains what happened as a result of Jesus' statement (John 19:27). What does John tell us? Does he tell us that, from that point onward, all Christians across the world recognized Mary as their spiritual mother? Does John tell us that, as a result of Jesus' comments, Christians began honoring Mary as Roman Catholics honor her? No, what John tells us is that, as a result of Jesus' comments, John took Mary into his home. So, we have John himself telling us that Jesus' comments had the sort of effect Evangelicals would expect, without any additional Roman Catholic implications mentioned. If you want us to accept the additional implications you're deriving from the passage, you need to prove those implications rather than just asserting them.<BR/><BR/>By the way, why don't you interpret verses 28-30 for us also? Is John referring to some sort of primacy of sour wine? Should we perhaps view sour wine as the drink of all drinks, the beverage Christians should prefer above all others? What larger implications should we draw from John 19:28-30, similar to the larger implications you want to draw from verses 26-27? Or do we selectively only engage in this sort of eisegesis when it's beneficial for Catholic apologetics, such as in passages about Peter and Mary (but not passages about Abraham, David, Joseph, John the Baptist, Paul, etc.)?Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1144010660673657752006-04-02T16:44:00.000-04:002006-04-02T16:44:00.000-04:00How interesting that you Catholics remember "I wil...How interesting that you Catholics remember "I will give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven" only when it was spoken to Peter, and not when it was spoken to all the disciples... Hmmmmm.<BR/><BR/>Answer: Because every Christian has sins that need to be forgiven. But not every Christian can say he personally cared for Jesus' mother in his home.<BR/><BR/>Or are you seriously arguing that Dismas got special treatment not available to other believers?<BR/><BR/>It is a huge stretch from "Behold your mother" ("he cared for her, because she was an elderly, vulnerable widow") to the Catholic Marian doctrines ("Mary cares for us, because she is a powerful co-redemptrix".) The message here that's applicable to all Christians is: Be like Jesus, who even amidst horrendous suffering, cared for his family/ for widows.<BR/><BR/>Evangelical "implications from Scripture" amount to connecting dots (1 God + three persons = Trinity). Catholic "implications from Scripture", OTOH, amount to allow theological speculations and pagan influences to creep into the church and then casting around, centuries later, for isolated proof-texts that sound like they have something to do with the matter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1144009458314258842006-04-02T16:24:00.000-04:002006-04-02T16:24:00.000-04:00It is interesting how you apply Jesus' words to th...It is interesting how you apply Jesus' words to the thief to every Christian, but do not apply His words to John ("This is your mother," regarding Mary) to every Christian. Hmmmm.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1144009160250846272006-04-02T16:19:00.000-04:002006-04-02T16:19:00.000-04:00Amen.Amen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com