tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post112734627615908163..comments2024-03-27T17:15:37.606-04:00Comments on Triablogue: That girl's gotta mind of her own!Ryanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17809283662428917799noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1127473149238119142005-09-23T06:59:00.000-04:002005-09-23T06:59:00.000-04:00Gene,I am with you on your post. The conclusion w...Gene,<BR/><BR/>I am with you on your post. The conclusion we draw from Warren's comments based on the words he used and what he said and didn't say. I guess I thought this was obvious.<BR/><BR/>Also, don't be bothered too much about Oddball Pastor's misspelling words. That's sorta like his trademark after all these years. He's on "our side" though we disagree about Warren.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01410144337505012175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1127435576713374902005-09-22T20:32:00.000-04:002005-09-22T20:32:00.000-04:00I'd add that in traditional Reformed nomenclature,...I'd add that in traditional Reformed nomenclature, divine "permission" is applied to moral evils, not natural evils. It is concerned with God's will in relation to the human will. It is not applied to inanimate forces which have no will.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1127430813763261382005-09-22T19:13:00.000-04:002005-09-22T19:13:00.000-04:00The fact is that while Warren did not make the dis...<I>The fact is that while Warren did not make the distinction, we can see it implicit in his comments. Or not. It depends simply on how one is inclined.<BR/> </I><BR/><BR/>If speculation is illicit for me, then it is equally illicit for you. If my view is a product of my inclination, then yours is also a product of <I>your</I> inclination. <BR/><BR/> Warren did not make a distinction. How then can you say he did when he clearly did not? <BR/><BR/> How can you dismiss what we say on the basis of our alleged inclination while giving yourself a free pass?<BR/><BR/><I>I think he did just that as he said "not everything that happens is God's will." Clearly he allows that it could be. If he guilty of seeming to lean towards the option that katrina is not God's directive will, that is not a reason to conedmn him. </I><BR/><BR/>His response was to the question "Was it God's will? (paraphrased)" <BR/><BR/> If it was part of His permissive will, the answer is "Yes." If it was part of His directive will it is still "Yes" and, as a Calvinist, you must also agree that there is nothing that happens apart from His directive, sovereign will anyway, since even teven that which happens via God's inaction/permission is still a decree. I've seen some call this the difference between an active and a passive decree. What is done by God's inaction is, nevertheless, still a decree and still God's will. <BR/><BR/> Warren actually said, "Not everything is God's will," yet, to be consistent, the answer is "Everything is God's will." Warren should say what he means if he meant something else.<BR/><BR/>He employed the FWD, not distinctions in God's will in his answer. The FWD works, to a degree, for moral evil, not natural evil, but it still makes no sense with a commitment to libertarianism or w/o a robust doctrine of original sin. You can say that hurricanes are a result global warming (a point of contention in the scientific community as it is) which is a result of the clearing of rainforests that is ultimately a result of the Fall, but that isn't what <I>Warren</I> argued. That would be <I>your</I> argument. This is about what <I>Warren</I> said.<BR/><BR/>And, please, at the risk of sounding insulting, Calvinist is not spelled "Calvanist." I hate to sound pedantic, and this is not me trying to be snide, but there is something rather ironic about a person talking about whether or not others are muddled in their expressions or not while at the same time posting misspelled words repetitively.GeneMBridgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10504383610477532374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1127418267340860132005-09-22T15:44:00.000-04:002005-09-22T15:44:00.000-04:00JM:Warren does not say that God is not in control....JM:<BR/><BR/>Warren does not say that God is not in control. That's a misrepresentation. <BR/><BR/>"Warren doesn't have to write nor talk as for "theologians" to get his point across biblically."<BR/><BR/>He does just that. He does not use our terms, and does not make certain affirmations that you or others might feel are essential. But that isn't relevant. <BR/><BR/>Those who think Warren muddies the waters are being unreasonable, not because they want to see truth given, but because they insist that thier way to say it is the only way. <BR/><BR/>The argument si essentially the same that a KJVO adocate might make wrt translations: moder translations might get somethigns right, but ehy muddy the waters on other things, so we should all only use the KJV. The argument is wrong in either application.Oddball Pastorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652489553058249992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1127390719329217232005-09-22T08:05:00.000-04:002005-09-22T08:05:00.000-04:00Brent, the last time we talked about Warren in #pr...Brent, the last time we talked about Warren in #pros you were making the same points about Warren as we discussed if PDL actually contains the Gospel. Warren doesn't have to write nor talk as for "theologians" to get his point across biblically. He can stay theologically consistent while talking to the layman and the lost. Warren muddies the water as we can see, especially, for those of us who read his interview in Modern Reformation where he claims to hold to the theology of the reformers.<BR/><BR/>How comforting is it to tell an individual that basically God isn't in control of all that is happening (whether He can or not)?Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01410144337505012175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1127364898451683142005-09-22T00:54:00.000-04:002005-09-22T00:54:00.000-04:00But isn't it that God *didn't* stand in the gap ra...But isn't it that God *didn't* stand in the gap rather than that He *couldn't*?<BR/>I hear a lot of appeals to the idea that since God didn't do something that means He couldn't do it. That does not follow.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1127360903555572532005-09-21T23:48:00.000-04:002005-09-21T23:48:00.000-04:00(1) You pick on Rick Warren, you should expect Ric...(1) You pick on Rick Warren, you should expect Richard Abanes to come and rough you up. Maybe that's what you were trying to do.<BR/><BR/>(2) Dude, I always feel so sorry for God when I hear guys like Warren and Osteen and Oprah and Campolo talk about how sorry He is that this happened. It's too bad He couldn't do anything about it. It's too bad. God is sorry He can't stand in the gap.<BR/><BR/>I wonder: why can this be George Bush's responsibility and not God's responsibility? What's the philosophical calculus there that does not involve tacit atheism?<BR/><BR/>(3) I'm tired. If I had any more good one-liners, I'd post them on my blog and see if it stirs up Armstrong any.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1127359960181620082005-09-21T23:32:00.000-04:002005-09-21T23:32:00.000-04:00Did God differentiate between God's permissive and...Did God differentiate between God's permissive and directive will? No. Again he is not trying to talk to theologues. Your "proper" distinctions" are just that: yours. Don't mistake sloppy theology for simple pastoral empathy. When asked the question, proper distinctions are nt to be a pastor's forst consideration. The person asking hte question was not asking for such distinctions.<BR/><BR/>The fact is that while Warren did not make the distinction, we can see it implicit in his comments. Or not. It depends simply on how one is inclined.<BR/><BR/>"He could have said, "We shouldn't conclude definitively that God used Katrina as a tool of judgment, however, we should certainly be asking that question, because Scripture teaches that He has done such things in history."<BR/><BR/>I think he did just that as he said "not everything that happens is God's will." Clearly he allows that it could be. If he guilty of seeming to lean towards the option that katrina is not God's directive will, that is not a reason to conedmn him. <BR/><BR/>Whatever Gene may think about Warren's appeal to PDC (one would be surprised if he spoke about churches he didn't know about), Steve's complaint is about Calvanism vs. Arminiaism.Oddball Pastorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652489553058249992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1127358912233334552005-09-21T23:15:00.000-04:002005-09-21T23:15:00.000-04:00I honestly don't think Rick Warren thought about h...I honestly don't think Rick Warren thought about his remark. Nor do I believe that Warren has a coherent idea of the problem of evil. In the end, Warren is simply a product of our times: to make a complicated world uncomplicated by interpreting reality into bite-sized pieces. There always more going on than is comprehensible -- and humans are too prideful in general to admit this.Christopher Trottierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07213876422367028713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1127358871920605392005-09-21T23:14:00.000-04:002005-09-21T23:14:00.000-04:00All I see Warren saying is that Katrina is a resul...<I>All I see Warren saying is that Katrina is a result of a fallen world. God did not,as a matter of directive will, cause Katrina. Katrina is a matter of God's permissive will. </I><BR/><BR/>Warren said, First thing we need to understand is that not everything that happens in this world is God's will."<BR/><BR/>The question to which He was responding was: <BR/><BR/><I>In my hometown of Pass Christian, [sic] I ran across a woman who came up to me and she said, Robin, it’s, it’s as if God tried to wipe us off the face of the earth. You know there are some people that look and see this destruction and, and say, where, where is whatever it is, or whomever they, they, they look to…</I><BR/><BR/>1. Did Warren differentiate between God's permissive, preceptive, or decretive wills? <B>No.</B> The FIRST thing He says is "not everything that happens in this world is God's will," in response to a question asking essentially whether or Katrina was God's will.<BR/><BR/>2. Thus, rather than making the proper distinctions, He says NOT EVERYTHING IS GOD'S WILL. How can anybody say that He was making any distinction whatsoever when He says "not everything is God's will?" What does he mean by "God's will?" It seems to me that you're filling in blanks and speaking for Warren where he did not speak.<BR/><BR/>He could have quoted Scripture: To borrow from the original commentary @ the Gadfly: <BR/><BR/>Amos 3:6 …When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? <BR/><BR/>Psalm 148:8 Fire and hail, snow and clouds; Stormy wind, fulfilling His word <BR/><BR/>Psalm 135:6-7 The Lord does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths. He makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth; he sends lightning with the rain and brings out the wind from his storehouses. <BR/><BR/>Lamentations 3:37-38 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come? <BR/> <BR/>Then, he simply says, <I>"I have a will, you have a will, we have a free will… And so, we have a lot of things that go bad…"</I><BR/><BR/>He said nothing about Katrina being the result of a fallen world. He somehow ties Katrina to "free will." Honestly, you seem to be reading more into his statement than what he said. This statement is ambigous at best. He could easily mean, "Nature seems to have a mind of its own, this is a result of that." <BR/><BR/>Steve is correct, those who use the free will defense the most are often the same ones that say "not everything is God's will," and end up denying God Himself free will. For the record, Warren does teach libertarian free will. Libertarian free will denies God free will under it's definition, "freedom to do otherwise, e.g. indeterminate choice," God cannot sin, thus God has no free will by this definition. Warren could well be saying that God's will is trumped by man's will or the forces of nature that seem to have a mind of their own. Do I think he's an Open Theist? No. Do I think he inserted his foot in his mouth again, yes. I say, "again," because this kind of shallow presentation is a regular fixture. Jerry Falwell, with whom I have profound theological disagreements does a better job, even when he inserts his foot is <I>his</I> mouth.<BR/><BR/><I>Inasmuch as Katrina is aresult of Adam's decision to sin, Katrina is just that. Unless one wishes to claim, as some do, that Katrina is an act of God's judgment we can only say that God casued Katrina, ijn the direct and directive sense, as a possibility only.</I><BR/><BR/>That's true, but rather than saying that in the very next breath., Warren says:<BR/><BR/><I>You know Robin, we have nearly 4,000 Purpose Driven churches that have done the “40 Days of Purpose” program in the Gulf states. And we know at least four to 500 of them were, lost their buildings completely. And yesterday, I met with…</I><BR/><BR/>He could have said, "We shouldn't conclude definitively that God used Katrina as a tool of judgment, however, we should certainly be asking that question, because Scripture teaches that He has done such things in history. However, the real question isn't "Why did this happen to the people on the Gulf Coast?" The real question is "Why didn't this happen to me?" Jesus, when confronted about a similar, yet smaller disaster in his own day faced the same question. Rather than proclaim what God had or had not done, He simply said, "Unless you all repent, you will all likewise perish." No matter how God might answer the question of judgment, we certainly need to see this as a wakeup call, because that was what Jesus said.<BR/><BR/>This has nothing to do with Warren not being "too Arminian" or "too Calvinistic," it has everything to do with him being the pastor of a highly influential church with a public voice for Christ, failing to answer such an elementary question biblically and then using it as a platform to discuss PDC. He had a prime opportunity to call for repentance, just like Jesus did, and this comes on the heels of a statement just weeks ago in which he referred to The Fundamentals published in the early part of last century as "legalistic."GeneMBridgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10504383610477532374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1127358225271221072005-09-21T23:03:00.000-04:002005-09-21T23:03:00.000-04:00I wonder how long it will be before Richard Abanes...I wonder how long it will be before Richard Abanes comes here to defend Warren...again.GeneMBridgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10504383610477532374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1127355820622478552005-09-21T22:23:00.000-04:002005-09-21T22:23:00.000-04:00Warren does not use theological language really so...Warren does not use theological language really so one should not be surprised to see him make a statement that is misunderstood by those who are very focussed on such terminology.<BR/><BR/>All I see Warren saying is that Katrina is a result of a fallen world. God did not,as a matter of directive will, cause Katrina. Katrina is a matter of God's permissive will. <BR/><BR/>Quite frankly some calvanists ned to get off the <BR/>Warren is too arminian thing. I know plenty of arminians who se Warren is too Calvanistic. <BR/><BR/>So Warren's theology is not muddled. He does not commnicate for the theologian though, and that, to some, amkes him look mudled.<BR/><BR/>Your proper amnswer is not correct, or not necessarily so, not even in Calvanist theology. Calvanism affirms that God has given man the ability to make real choices, and to suffer the consequences therefrom. Inasmuch as Katrina is aresult of Adam's decision to sin, Katrina is just that. Unless one wishes to claim, as some do, that Katrina is an act of God's judgment we can only say that God casued Katrina, ijn the direct and directive sense, as a possibility only.Oddball Pastorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652489553058249992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1127350647295310442005-09-21T20:57:00.000-04:002005-09-21T20:57:00.000-04:00Not that I want to defend Rick Warren much, but ju...Not that I want to defend Rick Warren much, but just looking at this quote ALONE, couldn't one conclude that PDL-Man believes that maybe the Devil was in charge of this hurricane (thus making it the Devil's free-will) and not God or the hurricane itself?<BR/>Of course, that brings up the question of how much God "wills" what the Devil does. But can't He *allow* it w/o *willing* it?Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6789188.post-1127350216843655752005-09-21T20:50:00.000-04:002005-09-21T20:50:00.000-04:00"And why did Rick Warren go on national TV without..."And why did Rick Warren go on national TV without having a better answer to offer?"<BR/><BR/>To sell his book, the Purpose Driven Life. That's all he could talk about outside of defaming God's sovereign character. I know that is overly simplistic, but every time this guy goes on national TV or radio, he is just pushing his book. Months ago he was on the Alan Colmes radio program. Colmes is a flaming liberal who was throwing softballs at Warren about the tsunami in Asia and why God “allowed” it. All Warren wanted to do was push his book, his answers were exactly like the ones he gave above. I have no problem with folks selling books, but c’mon, this guy is a self confessed minister of the Gospel, and every chance he gets, he wants to sell his book. Am I wrong here? Just seems like the same old sad story…Joe L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14415181787477765576noreply@blogger.com